EYES WHAT U THINK!!!

[Guest Paulo]

Thanks Jack. I will try and purchase a copy as I say its something I wouldn't mind learning a bit more about.

 

"I do agree that many top flyers do not use eye-sign at all, but most are constantly bringing in new blood to stay at the top.''

 

Agree with you 100% on the above my grandda,dad and granma had a fair bit of success in the sport especially other the water they never used eyesign and told me it is vital to bring in new blood if you want to be successful.

 

"As an aside I think it is such a shame that the allround Busscaherts of outstanding quality do not seem to exist anymore the perfect pigeons that would win from 50 to 500 mile at any velocity, that for me was the trade mark of many of his best!.''

 

Great pigeons those one's my dad had these great allrounders also crossed well with vandvelves to make great distance pigeons.

 

I think Busschaert just had a gift just one of those great stockmen who can make out a quality pigeon.

 

heres a good thread about the busshys

 

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1159864466/s-0/

[Guest]

Paulo, yes a gift but a bit more, because those that are gifted wil have a sense which will be consistent and as a result their choices will be consistent; where as with Busscahert, he was totally inconsistent with shape, size and type but with quality 100% and quality is not visible., yes some birds feel quality, however there are many (and I've handled lots of stock hens that are the pits) with no 'quality,' that are outstanding!

Funnily enough I've in the winter got hold of 4 pair of dark velvet vandies (Jimmy Napper originals) and by heck I do have hopes of one or two of these being the real deal!!

[Guest Paulo]

"Funnily enough I've in the winter got hold of 4 pair of dark velvet vandies (Jimmy Napper originals) and by heck I do have hopes of one or two of these being the real deal!!''

 

well if they are I'll buy some young birds off you

[Guest]

Paulo, thanks for the thread looks like good reading, hadn't seen it, will have a look the next few days

[Roland]

Paulo, i have also wondered about Busscahert; for me he was also a master selector. His ability was incredible, if it was not the eye it was undoubtedly some other thing that he had sussed. Would love to have met the man. I have seen a lot of fantastic pigeons originating from the originals and what struck me, was there was never any standard conformation, in size/type, however they did have in the majority of instances, the qualities i look for in an eye and outstanding examples of these qualities. So yes I have thought that maybe George Busschaert

had cracked the eye. If he didn't he had found some other indicator, because I know of no other man (other than some eye men) who could do this, (though I am sure there are others and a lot of their 'secrets' have been lost because technology and communication 40 years ago was not what it is today.

As an aside I think it is such a shame that the allround Busscaherts of outstanding quality do not seem to exist anymore the perfect pigeons that would win from 50 to 500 mile at any velocity, that for me was the trade mark of many of his best!

 

No eye theory there Albear... Indeed the Belgiums haven't even got a name for it! They have 'Fixers' who will pair up for a fee, but no eye peeping.

Now Busschearts were mate thus, because he could even read about pigeons and never knew the Fanciers, but got them to breed the good from mating them.

Now STR for example stated that all he ever did was handle the birds to decide what to buy! Saw a great article in that regards in the BHW just before his last 'Final' sale.

I believe that the best British 'Stockman' or in top three to be safe as I didn't know them all, was of course Masserella. I have some articles still I'll sort out for you Albear sometime shortly and Ibelieve your find them interesting reading.

[Guest]

Yes Roland, I do not disagree I don't think the fancy has ever appreciated what a great legacy he gave us and has left. It will be interesting how his sons do, I do believe they are 100% genuine their only problem I suggest is perhaps they do not have the bucks to invest that their father had, or perhaps they have and are waiting for the fantastic family to emerge like the Van Geels / Aardens and buy the best!!

Until Masserella came along such wonderful blood was unatainable to the working man. I remember his away sales, and went to a few in the Valleys. Remember well the Lefebre Deahans at one sale, had never heard of them. These sprinters bred winners in the Valleys from 50 to 600 miles, Lerwick no less. Lee & Cooper in the Rhymney Valley put up some incredible performances with them as did another chap in Risca who'se name escapes me.

[Guest]

The once I visited Nigel Cowood I remember he too had some fantastic Lefabre's. I remember handling a pigeon and looking at its eye and saying this is outstanding and him looking at me and saying how do you know that??? Nigel is an eye man and this bird did not conform to 'traditional' eye values. I must admit though I had not quite cracked the secret that Carney has never exposed at that time!!

And I think this is a guy to who has done a fantastic job for the fancy, without anyone noticing him. If I'm not wrong wasn't he the pioneer of one loft racing?? Was his the first, he put up some fantastic performances with his 'one loft' set up in the MNFC

[Ronnie]

I just wish someone would tell me a simple eyesign guide to breeding.

Something like

1 seperate all pearl eye's from yellow eye's

2 proced to seperate all the full circled pearl eye's from the rest

etc etc

 

they would first have to show me how to recognise a full circle from half circle.

Ive got a mealy with a yellow circle and one with half a black circle on a yellow background what would be better.A local fancier states that the black on yellow is the best where i would say that the full yellow is best .The reason being the black on yellow is not very bold and bright in other area's of the eye where as the full yellow is is outstanding all over the eye.

Not asking for anyone to say what the reckon is best(time will tell) just trying to highlight problems that face us beginners.Are we looking just for the so called eyesign circle or the whole eye in general.do we want breeders racers or the dual eye.if we get the dual eye how do we know its any good if we dont race it and so on.

Yes if i could get a Idiots guide to eyesign i would buy it :)Especially if it showed me how to pair by it.

 

[timbarra]

Hi jack can i mention that your comment earlier on hitler is not a example to be aired in a pigeon forum... touche maybe? i not picking a fight again it is said tongue it cheek and hope you take it in humour . sure you will.

and the german people are very much nice people regardless i think what a certain man by a certain name did. he not worth mentioning.

roland what is it you want to know about eyesign ? do you have an e- mail address or mail me at spencer@timbarra.co.uk  . i will try and advise you if you would like.

[timbarra]

hi jack, i understand you have written a book and a second and your making a dvd at the moment, can i ask why you dont put your findings and transcript on your web page so everybody can learn what you know for free?

i put my findings in the british homing world for free i have no secrets, and may i ask in what regard you hold bill carney and he's eyesign methods please?

 

regards spencer , hope your well

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Timbarra,

 

Just pointing out recorded history that winner to winner is not the best way to breed. I am of German descent myself. Although born an Englishman and now a naturalised South African.

 

You caught me there and I am laughing about it, but be careful, although it is touche I have not sheathed my rapier yet.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

 

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Timbarra,

 

I think you will find more free advice on my website than most sites which are just advertising gimmicks to sell pigeons. I answer over 350 e-mails per month on racing pigeons for free.

 

To publish a book cost lots of money and the copyright of my first book was

sold to be published in seven languages. Besides those who have not got the internet need to buy the book, or would need to purchase a computer and learn how to use it.

 

As far as your question regarding Bill Carney as an eye sign selector I rate him number one, Piet de Weerd No 2 and myself No 3. These are the only people I know of who have not published something that to me is utterly ridiculous somewhere in their writings or videos.

 

It is my living to write books and evaluate, pair, and sell pigeons. I would never dream to ask you why you do not work for nothing and live off fresh air.

 

Many new starters that I have felt deserving have been presented with books and pigeons for free.

 

I hope this answeres your question.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[timbarra]

hello jack,

i understand you do this as a supplement income which is all well and good and i commend you for it.

but people can download your theory in internet cafes and it would not be expensive for them to do, but as its your supplement income then i do understand,

as for bill carney , i had a friend who had him visit he's loft only to kill all he's best racers and another friend who had him visit told me he visited his loft and killed most of he's birds then evaluated the race team to find among them a top racing bird of exceptional quality, and said that the parents of such a bird should remain together as they would breed a loft full of top winners. well it would be hard to do this as bill carney killed the parents of the birds10 minute earlier and this should never have happened if the eyesign expert knew what he was talking about as you know eyesign is a genetic trait !!!! which is my point exactly when i say i do not think eyesign should be used as a selection tool , only a tool to confirm parentage which with good pigeons will see a fancier get to the top.

 

what do you think?

 

also if i was going to buy a book on eyesign , would it not be better to buy the book of the top eyesign man which in your words is bill carney!!! who has made terrible errors in his judgement in selection.

 

so now you can see why fanciers are confused. i am not knocking it but people must live buy their conviction and eyesign as a measuring tool is theory , which is no more than one mans idea to bassically say that " he thinks he is right" why not term it a fact like i have and use it for something it cannot be disclaimed to do.  facts and only facts should be used not ideas and theory..

 

regards   spencer,

[Guest]

Spencer

1 What are the terrible errors made by Carney? Did he visit your loft and make some judgements or is this another scientific statement based on genetics? Tell me when did you meet him when did you see him select.

2 I've read what you wrote in the BHW and I haven't got a clue from that what to look for in the pigeon eye and how to breed, perhaps you can point me to where that is

3 Perhaps Jack could put everything on for free, when the next top racing men start selling their YB for free or disclosing their methods for free, or when Boddy & ridewood become a charitable trust and we all get pigeon equipment at a reduced rate?

Come on, it would be nearly every pigeon fanciers dream to make a living out of what they love. Derek Nicolls has taken a lot of stick because of his money orientation shown in the Million dollar race. There were parts of the program i thought were objectionable.....but not where he works damn hard to create an innovative idea ploughs a large investment (his own money) with no guarantees it won't go tits up!!

What i find offensive is when someone goes down the commercial route and then says i'm helping the fancy and forgets to add how they are also helpng themselves!

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Timbarra,

 

I agree that eye sign is genetic, but not just to recognise parentage, on that I strongly disagree. There are many genetic traits that spring up in the third and fourth generation that can be seen in the eyes of birds which cannot be seen in their direct parentage, and which we can use to select, which hold the better genes for stock purposes.

 

I think you are way off the right track, but that is only my opinion, and you have a right to try and persuade others in your belief. Sadly it is my opinion that anyone that is swayed by some of your beliefs will mark time probably for many years to come.

 

On giving a seminar in the North East of England, people in the audience attacked me after speaking well of Bill Carney, after being asked my opinion of his ability. They spread damaging comment just as you are doing, never thinking that they may have been the ones at fault themselves. I visited the same lofts giving a more accurate evaluation. Now I am not saying I am a better man than him, but maybe I used a more intelligent approach.

 

I evaluated lofts in England but condemned more fanciers than their birds, and refused to be drawn into evaluating birds pumped full of medication. I have my rules and would not risk my reputation on a few needle pushers which is what I believe Bill Carney did.

 

No 1- Birds can be judged wrongly by the eye when on ant-biotic and viral injections which is very common place these days in England, for most English birds are drug dependant. Yes I have made regular trips there, and I am aware of how they have followed the Belgians in pumping their birds full of muck. Very rarely is there to be found food or water that has not been doctored with something or other that effects the sphincter muscles in the eye.

 

No 2, birds who have a thirst are also unreadable to the point of much variation when deprived of water while waiting for evaluation.

 

No 3 Birds eyes should be examined in a constant light, for sunlight readings are the most irregular reading one can imagine, ever changing as the sun arks across the sky and slips in and out of the clouds.

 

Timbarra, I do not get challenged anymore, for I make sure I take anyone who dares challenge me for what I or they can afford at the time. Yes I am a pro, and will not stick my neck out just to win accolades. The price to get me into the ring claims a purse that must be worthy of the challenge.

 

Of course all characteristics are genetic, on this we are agreed, but to say it will only recognise direct parentage is not some thing you will ever convince me of, for I have obviously gone into it far deeper than you. The defects of parents and children or the level of health and intelligence are not the same. Neither are the abilities to reproduce their like, and for this I have recorded proof.

 

I disagree with you Timbarra, for there are answers for everything, and fortunately I do not get the story wrong.

I do not profess to understand the eye better than Bill Carney, but protect his credibility by saying he is not strict enough in making sure that there are no crippling affects due to lack of understanding how an eye can be rejected one day, and classed among the best in the past or the future. I have not had the chance to question him on this particular aspect, so I can't say for sure I am correct in my assumptions of him.

 

Many people have the capabilities of eye recognition, but are simple enough to think that the genetic imprint on the eye will remain constant. Most British pigeons can't win without some drug dependence, this has changed the eyes dramatically especially in your country where you can hardly win a race without it. One can never be sure when visiting there, whether a great win was from the super health and intelligence of the bird, or whether the success came out of a bottle or injection.

 

No Timbarra, I do not think myself and my colleagues could ever agree with you, and I do not wish to discuss Bill, or the benefits of eye sign any further. I hope you understand, I am not prepared to exert my patience with your line of questioning. Tell it to the BHW, I would rather write for free to the Pigeon Digest in America where people are ready to listen rather than argue. I publish my findings where I know it will be received in the proper manner, and have no desire to irritate or interest fanciers on this thread any more. I have said all I am prepared to say before I attract the wrath of some who think they know better than the professional people from where I draw my source of information.

 

Timbarra, unfortunately you and I are poles apart, and I am not prepared to discuss the point with you as you are on a different wavelength. It is better I discuss the way forward with those on a similar track as be distracted by those who even the genetic biologists would obviously never agree.

 

Let us say we agree to disagree in a friendly manner rather than pursue this fruitless reasoning. I will answer questions on what I deem to be fair queries but do not try to get me to agree with what I deem to be pure figments of imagination. If you wish to pit your knowledge on the subject with someone, leave me out of it. I have heard your opinion and discarded it as none productive, so I have lost interest and see no future in carrying on this discussion.

 

We can still be friends, but I do not think it is healthy that we correspond in this fashion. It is my prerogative to discard what I cannot come to terms with, and have decided to spend my time in the company of those more favourably inclined to the subject. For I cannot see me making any further progress here.

 

Thanks Albear, my sentiments exactly.

 

Regards to All and No Offence.

 

Jack Barkel

[Roland]

Why don't Champions produce champions equal to or better than themselves?

Hardly an eye-sign question but that any eye-sign man should know the answer to. Why?

[Guest]

Leave that one to the eye sign men Roland

[timbarra]

hi jack, thanks for the repky , no offence taken  take care.

 

 

hi roland, i will endeavour to answer your question. firstly champions do produce  pigeons better and equal to themselves, they can also produce pigeons worse than themselves also .

this i think is due not to eyesign. but it is down to compatability to each other as a mate , that is why alot of fanciers pair winner to winner to try to improve their chances of producing winners. like i said to jack eyesign should never be used as a measuring tool to evaluate a pigeons ability, let the basket work and results do that for you also top bloodlines should be studied and the ability to try and keep the good work done by the strains founders can be kept and improved on.

eyesign should only be used to confirm parentage it cant tell you a pigeon is capable of anything, if that was the case would the top policing units around the world look into peoples eyes and tell whether they are phsycotic enough to kill someone... can you imagine people being arrested and sentenced to life for a murder that they have yet to commit??? bloody hell the world would be insane.  

 

 

albear i personnaly have not met bill carney and i would not be interested in doing so, i know people who have had their lofts evaluated by him and he was wrong. . . dead pigeons can not prove people wrong . i never cull using eyesign . what a narrow minded view that would be. and sir you can defend mr carney however you see fit. i shall not get into petty arguements. can you not hink for yourself instead of following others that claim to profess what they are not or claim to do.

 

jack may i add that not every pigeon in the u.k win because they are doped or medicated , and sir to claim it is wrong , whatever your views on medication they are your views and repected they are but as you seem to want to tar everybody with the same brush , well small minded that seems.

 

 

also as for Derek Nichols what a bloody shame that program was and it was embarrassing to be associated with the sport. but i can see in 10 years time that is the way the sport is heading, so maybe mr nicholls will get satisfaction he wants.

 

cheers all, and jack please consider this .... it does not have to be your way or the highway!!!

 

your a nice guy and wishyou all the best,

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Timbarra,

 

I must correct you for I never said that every pigeon that wins in the U/K is doped???,  I NEVER MADE ANY SUCH CLAIM!!!!. My best birds come from the U/K, and they are Busschaerts.

 

May I ask why  you to be unable to digest what people say, correctly. I cannot decide whether you just can't help being so ebrasive, or is it just that your mind will not contain what people are really saying. I find it difficult to admire anyone who takes everything they read or hear out of context. It is not a good characteristic, and I hope it is not genetic???

 

I deny that I tar everyone with the same brush, if it is your intention to attempt to turn every English fancier on this list against me for what I am supposed to have said, and not for what I really said, then Timbarra you are going to lose this one.

 

I also wish to inform you that both my books are in the English Library's for those who can't afford or just do not wish to buy them. I have published in many magazines for free, and I think it is unfair that you could even suggest I should do it all for nothing. I presume my free contribution to the sport will be much greater than yours, yet you question why I do not do it for nothing.

 

Some of us form a gene pool because we can select which winners will breed winners and which cannot by using eye sign. The greatest stock bird I ever bred could not fly out of sight on a dark night, because of his eye I stocked him and he went on to breed nine first federation winners, which were reported back to me.

 

I also think it a great pity that you are prepared to blacken the ability of a great asset to the sport as Bill Carney. He has stood the test with phenomanal results in many parts of the world. We who have had this type of success have been invited to many countries. We do not kill off other peoples pigeons either, or their reputations. I have never met you but it is hard to believe that your mind is not influenced by some other chemical reaction at times, when you sit infront of the computer keyboard.

 

I have over 200 birds in the United Emirates, I had a breeding station in America until recently. I have just exported 12 birds to Israel in the last two months. Isn't it conceivable to you that people like myself and the Bill Carney's of this world, must have a reason for being in such popular demand?

 

I still would say, if I wanted to import new blood I would search for it in the United Kingdom, however I say again when buying birds from the U/K one has to be carefull as many are infertile through the administration of uncontrolled drugs, and that the standards of all round pigeons are dropping with the introduction of fast blow home pigeons. I believe, and this is not an eye sign statement that there are too many do it yourself artists in the Old Country.

 

Of course I am sure there are some of the greatest pigeon fanciers in the world in your country also, it is also no secret that there are many who treat it as a hobby and not a science.

 

I think Bill Carney, will be remembered for the good he has done in the sport long after he is dead and gone. That is more than I can say for most of the people in the sport who are prepared to condemn the man without ever seeing him at work.

 

I say, THANKS TO BILL CARNEY for lots of my eye sign knowledge, I will continue to defend what he stands for in his absence as well as his presence.

Truly an all time great in the sport.

 

Several have written to me since our first altercation to give me their opinion that your writings in the BHW are worthless junk. ( Junk was not one of the words used).  I have never read any of it , but I think you should realise what a reputation you may be building for yourself, rather than criticising the rest of us on this list, and particularly a great British fancier like Bill Carney.

 

 

Jack Barkel

[Guest]

Spencer, it is worth answering your comments. If you were able to go to a loft and not only pick the birds that breed but then differentiate between those that will breed several generations to those that are deadenders, i.e will breed a few winners but no further then , you should concentrate on those that will breed you winners that will breed winners. Just from your writings I can see that if I came to your loft and I said to you that pair 3 will breed the odd winner but don't breed from them concentrate on these two pairs, I'd bet my bottom dollar you'd breed from the 3 equally and then you'd breed from the winners out of the 'duff' pair then you'd cross them with the good ones and dilute these further and then you'd say, the selector was useless cause you'd breed less and less good uns.

Secondly tell me Spencer ever had any points on your driving licence, there are 10 million of us who have, are they not capable of driving, should they be banned cause they got caught speeding, are they not capable of driving? don't think so, 90% I would suggest drive with little regard for the speed limit and are always looking for cameras but they still get caught , they make a mistake.  I'm sure Bill is the same he is only human on occasions he will make a mistake.

Now then Spencer who are these people you know, name them...........I'll bet my bottom dollar, they didn't follow his advice.

Spencer, Bill has gone to some of the top lofts in the country before they became top lofts and paired for them and their success has been phenominal.

 

Roland I will answer your question, do you have some champions in your loft that have not bred, I hope so cause then you can check this out, this is the shortest cut I know to selecting, if you have outstanding birds. Just look at the outside circle, if your bird won first SNFC at 600 mile and it has NO outside circle it will not breed, make sure when you check for the outside circle you look at an angle, some birds cause of the physiology of the eye don't show it if you look straight at it.

The outside circle theory is a classic, until Carney brought it to the fore , no one ever took much notice of it (though it had been talked about in the past), eye sign men have in most instances now taken this to heart!!

Warning...........do not think that if you put a bird with a good outside to a good outside that it will breed winners, this is not the case. When I tell you to look at the outside circle I am talking about proven pigeons, they will have the structure in the eye that you want to reproduce, that's why I ask Roland to check Champions cause the eye will have the right structure, and as I showed at the begining of this thread (or the Van Reet eye thread not sure which) it is possible to differentiate between the sprinters that will continue to breed next generation quality sprinters and the best distance birds.

 

If you have a family of dual purpose pigeons that win regularlyyou are very lucky, examine their eyes and do put the best outside circles together. Sometimes you wil get some where the outside circle is huge it comes right over the top of the eye and the eye blends perfectly, when you look at it there are clearly 5 circles but you cannot see where they join, they are seemless, if you have such a pigeon put it in the stock loft and get your management right. You can have the best in the world , they still need good management, though they are so good they will often carry you if its not quite right.

 

Spencer I ask again how would you select using eye sign to create a champion. I don't mind you challenging, it is the way forward as you say following like sheep is not the way, I had a good laugh at the irony of your statement. However you have come on here challenging, besmerching and stating how you have put everything you know in print. It's not a lot is it? Please prove me wrong, cause if you are out to teach fanciers new knowledge and how to create champion pigeons using the eye, I'm all ears  ;D, I'll soak it up like a sponge. You have my attention I look forward to your help.

[timbarra]

Most British pigeons can't win without some drug dependence, this has changed the eyes dramatically especially in your country .

 

 

no need to try and insult people, so i shall treat your comments with the contempt they deserve, you argue and as your of the old school fanciers ... trying to discuss it with you is futile as yes your always right... arent you

[timbarra]

albear , eyesign is not alot and is over complicated by eyesign people, i do not select my pigeons using eyesign , would you select your children telling them which child is better than the other, and when they find a partner look into he's eyes and tell them their children will be no good or they will be doctors etc etc.. no you would not, and i have done loft evaluations for many lofts and picked their best birds , which is not hard really because if you know anything about pigeons, you should be able to do without looking into their eyes!! i will also admit to evaluate a pigeon like i did as most eyesign men, was wrong , i was wrong to do it..

 

i am not here to argue but i tell you what i know differently to most eyesign men and they should carry on in their beliefs as they wont change , and thats ok,

 

i will however not be messaging much more due to the imature insults of some people who like to try and deter others. well done you done it , you win mr barkel, hope your happy , i have my family and children who are there for me always and my life is fulfilling enough to relise that you are set in your ways, i did not insult you mr barkel and only made reference to bill carney for what friends of mine have experienced, and if anyone was right about something they would not make mistakes , its not trial and error... it supposed to be facts that your boasting and trying to spread for people to believe.

 

yes i have taken offence by your insulting words and thought better of you, i wish you the best in all your endeavours and never thought ill of you because you make a supplement income from pigeons on the contrary i admire you. but you took it the wrong way as people do.

 

i wish everybody all the best in whatever they do and bid you good day.

 

 

regards spencer.

[Guest]

Do you know Spencer I do look in my children's eyes to see if their healthy and happy, I ain't interested if they can fly Lerwick!!!

[timbarra]

albear, if your children are laughing and smiling that should tell you there happy...... god man do you know how obssessed you sound with eyes. i cant talk to you people anymore , there is a real world out there and pigeon fanciers , most of them not all really want to wake up before life is gone by. the rest of the world laugh at pigeon people because of the way pigeons are portraid, whenever you mention your a pigeon fancier i bet it comes with a slight hint of embarrassment..... dont say it doesnt because it does.

 

thats how sad the rest of the population think pigeon men are. and sometimes like now i find i have to agree. sorry everyone just do your own thing.

 

 

goodbye

[Ronnie]

Isnt it amazing that some people can write like university lecturers yet still bicker and argue like little kid's.