Natural probiotics

[ally mac]

What does everybody think are the best, easily got hold of natural probiotics?

 

Al.

[Skull Lofts]

What does everybody think are the best, easily got hold of natural probiotics?

 

Al.

 

What do u try to ask?

 

Skull

 

[adam owen]

natrual greek yogurt actamal get them both in tescos

[Guest IB]

Ally, I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you mean a pigeon probiotic, or something like a pot of live natural yoghurt from the supermarket?

[ally mac]

Ally, I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you mean a pigeon probiotic, or something like a pot of live natural yoghurt from the supermarket?

 

Sorry folks, should have been clearer, aye Ian, something from the supermarket etc to save a few bob is what i'm after.

 

Al.

[Guest IB]

The way I did it was to check the label of all the natural yoghurts that were on the shelves. They all contain Lactobacillus Acidophilus, first name probably shortened to L. Acidophilus, but look for others:-

 

Bifidobacterium lactis

Bifidobacterium animalis

Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Lactobacillus johnsonii

Lactobacillus casei

Lactobacillus casei shirota

Lactobacillus salivarius

Lactobacillus reuteri

Enterococcus faecium

Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 (non-pathogenic e-coli)

Saccharomyces boulardii  (a yeast)

 

and choose the one which gives you 4/5 different strains, that's most they usually offer. Years ago now, but mine was Biopot, £1 for a 500gm pot. Just made it up fresh for each feed and fed it right away. Stirred in a couple of dollops on the food, fed on 3 consecutive days. Need to wash & disinfect feeder afterwards.

[adam owen]

The way I did it was to check the label of all the natural yoghurts that were on the shelves. They all contain Lactobacillus Acidophilus, first name probably shortened to L. Acidophilus, but look for others:-

 

Bifidobacterium lactis

Bifidobacterium animalis

Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Lactobacillus johnsonii

Lactobacillus casei

Lactobacillus casei shirota

Lactobacillus salivarius

Lactobacillus reuteri

Enterococcus faecium

Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 (non-pathogenic e-coli)

Saccharomyces boulardii  (a yeast)

 

and choose the one which gives you 4/5 different strains, that's most they usually offer. Years ago now, but mine was Biopot, £1 for a 500gm pot. Just made it up fresh for each feed and fed it right away. Stirred in a couple of dollops on the food, fed on 3 consecutive days. Need to wash & disinfect feeder afterwards.

is this still being made

 

[Guest IB]

is this still being made

 

Sorry if I misled you into thinking all of these were available in the one yoghurt, as far as I know they are not. The yoghurt I mentioned was Biopot, made by Onken, and yes, Asda still do it.

 

[Guest peter.j]

natrual greek yogurt actamal get them both in tescos

 

greek yoghurt lol do they like the honey at the bottom i think you mean natural yoghurt

[adam owen]

no natrual greek yogurt theres no honey mate

[sammy]

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-acidophilus.htm

[Guest IB]

Just a reminder of what we are trying to do here. This is a cut-down extract from experiments with actions of human strains of L Acidophilus on Salmonella:-

 

"One of the defense mechanisms by which a host species combats intestinal microbial pathogens is a first line of chemical defense involving the production of antimicrobials by the cells lining the gut wall. Together with this chemical defense system , one of the basic functions of the resident intestinal bacteria is that it acts as a barrier against microbial pathogens. There is increasing evidence that the antibacterial activities of the lactobacilli involve numerous mechanisms of action, including the production of antimicrobial substances. Some Lactobacillus strains, including Lactobacillus johnsonii, L. rhamnosus and L. fermentum have reported antimicrobial activities. Little is known about the antibacterial mechanism(s) of action of other substances produced by Lactobacillus strains originating from the human intestine. We decided to investigate the mechanism(s) by which Lactobacillus strains kill Salmonella Typhimurium.

 

As a test strain, we chose L. acidophilus , a strain of human origin that has activities against virulent pathogens. This strain produces a non-lactic-acid substances which exerts rapid and dramatic killing activity against S. Typhimurium. Moreover, LB-CFCS treatment results in the killing of Salmonella Typhimurium cells located within infected cultured human intestinal cells. We provide evidence suggesting that the mechanism of action involving bacterial membrane damage is lethal to Salmonella. "

 

full paper at ~ warning, very heavy to read:-

 

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/71/10/6115.pdf

[john@formula 1 lofts]

I would get Primlac as it is made for Avian rather then humans and through the initial out lay is higher the pot would last a decent size loft set up a year so works out less then the £1 a week you will spend at the supermarket.

 

John

[Guest Owen]

To be honest, I do not believe that this preoccupation with probiotics of  bovine origin actually does any good for pigeons. I would be interested to know how many Fanciers suffer YBS and Salmonella in spite of useing them. I think we need to move on from there and try to use ideas that are known to help. ACV being a very important agent to keep the gut slightly acidic. We know that this is something that helps. However, the doses must be small and regular to get the desired effect. We also know that citric acid in small doses helps and the old standby garlic is a marvelous health promoter. And although many will balk at the idea, dry deep litter is one of the best sources of pigeon friendly probiotics there is. And you must be fed up with me telling you the unpallatable truth, but I will. You have to dispose of the individuals who get ill. It is totally essential to keep records when you keep livestock seriously, and you should know that certain birds and certain families of birds constantly get ill. Equally, there are other birds and families that rarely get ill. It seems to me, that regardless of those well crafted pedigree papers, those that are prone to illnesses must be dumped. They will cost you money, hassle and time that should be spent on the good birds.

People have to get used to the idea that we should only breed from birds with proven attributes like winning races against both head and tail winds, or else have bred several winners with more that one mate. Otherwise we are making the problem worse.

And in conclusion I have to point out that I have used bovine sourced produces for various livestock over a lot of years and found it to be poor in terms of rearing the young of other species. On the other hand goat sourced products are extremely good even for bovines.    

[Guest IB]

Owen, I think you'll find probiotic bacteria are universal to all species. Yoghurt is just a medium for administering human probiotics, not cows, although Jeremy at RPRA's One Loft cultures Flightpath pigeon gut bacteria in yoghurt in industrial yoghurt-makers, that scale is needed for the birds in the one loft, and would cost a fortune if it was done using sachets of Flightpath from Merial.

 

Gut bacteria are also now considered part of the immune system.

 

I note what you say about acid environments and salmonella. This is one of the many areas where we have been misled on combatting this bacteria. Putting any acid in the drinking water actually prepares salmonella and helps it to survive the highly acidic environment in the stomach. Strange but true.

[PIGEON_MAN]

Owen, I think you'll find probiotic bacteria are universal to all species. Yoghurt is just a medium for administering human probiotics, not cows, although Jeremy at RPRA's One Loft cultures Flightpath pigeon gut bacteria in yoghurt in industrial yoghurt-makers, that scale is needed for the birds in the one loft, and would cost a fortune if it was done using sachets of Flightpath from Merial.

 

Gut bacteria are also now considered part of the immune system.

 

I note what you say about acid environments and salmonella. This is one of the many areas where we have been misled on combatting this bacteria. Putting any acid in the drinking water actually prepares salmonella and helps it to survive the highly acidic environment in the stomach. Strange but true.

So are you saying that using cider vinegar is not good for the birds.

 

[greenlands]

[/color]

So are you saying that using cider vinegar is not good for the birds.

 

 

Very interesting,that would be my next question ??

Cider vinegar to keep the canker count down but open an whole new world to Salmonella.So what do we do now ?

Lindsay

[Taylorsloft]

I would get Primlac as it is made for Avian rather then humans and through the initial out lay is higher the pot would last a decent size loft set up a year so works out less then the £1 a week you will spend at the supermarket.

 

John

 

i use every day i think it was £88 for 5lb  

[PIGEON_MAN]

 

Very interesting,that would be my next question ??

Cider vinegar to keep the canker count down but open an whole new world to Salmonella.So what do we do now ?

Lindsay

 

Think it might be best to forget all the ideas that this and that does the birds good and go back to the old days when fanciers put rusty nails in the water,put a wood lice down the birds throat if they went light and used fountain pen ink on the tip of a feather to clear canker from around a birds mouth,I,m sure the birds were healthier in those days.

[Guest Owen]

IB I am quite sure you are right in what you say in regard to the fact that bugs (for the want of a better word) definately adjust to the envirnments that they are faced with. I was gobsmacjked to find out that bacteria can and do use weak solutions of distinfectant to build their imunity so that they can cope with a super clean envirenment created by distinfectant. I quote Professor Tara Rodden Robinson of Oregan State University here. I was amazed to read on here a couple or so days ago that some are considering putting mild distinfectant into the drinking water. Can you imagine anything more stupid?

So we now know that bugs will adapt to most environments given time. But I do not think that we should give them as much help as we are. We need birds with well developed imune systems capable of fending off these challenges. To do this we must create a healthy place for the birds to live in and provide them with the sort of diet that suits them. And by that I do not mean believing what the Manufacturers print on the bags. Over use of tinin can not be good any more that single grain diets can be. I know you querie my view on Bovine sourced probiotics, but I am convinced that I am near the mark with my conclusions on this. Before I will consider reconsidering I would want to see proper tests done by qualified people on pigeons. I am not impressed by tests conducted on humans.

One thing we can do is, to ensure that the birds are never overcrowded in places with insufficient oxygen as many are. And it is vital that they are given daily access to a variety of minerals. And they have to have sunshine for health, every day not when the Owner thinks it is convenient.

But my most controvertial conclusion is that people need to kill off the weaklings and certainly not breed from them. I know people who breed from just about all the birds in their lofts. Birds that are usless at the very thing they are bred for, racing. If I had my way I would want to severly restrict antibiotic use. We do not want or need birds speading drug resistant bugs all over the place. Over time Fanciers have shown that a lot of them are just not responsible in managing something as potentially devastating as drugs. They have created a time bomb for the rest of us.  

In most areas of the Country birds, especially young birds, are being lost in droves. Covoyers and Race Controlers are given a rough ride because of it, in many cases. But the fact is that a lot of the birds are not up to racing, many of them are ill. Ask the Convoyer about the corn left in the baskets from birds sicking up. And those of us who can, have to try to convince those who do not know better, that trying to solve the problem by giving more drugs and other crap is not the answer. And breeding ever more birds is not either.

So in conclusion I offer you the solution of managing the birds well without the crap and kill the wasters ruthlessly. And if you want to buy stock, care must be taken not to bring birds in that have never seen a race basket and have been treated for goddness knows what ad infinitem. And before someone notices, I am still in favour of vaccination and treatment for worms canker and cocci if of course the birds have actually got these problems.

[Taylorsloft]

http://www.albertaclassic.net/2005/vinegar.php

[Guest IB]

[/color]So are you saying that using cider vinegar is not good for the birds.

 

No, I use cider vinegar as I was led to believe its use in drinking water helped to combat all harmful bacteria. I think others use it believing the same. My point was that it may have this general affect on bacteria, but not salmonella.

 

This is taken from a chapter about Innate Host Defenses in Salmonellosis:

 

"Mild acidic conditions increase the ability of many pathogenic bacteria to survive radical acid stress, such as encountered in the stomach's PH 1 or 2. These include Shigella, E coli and Salmonella which are capable of mounting an acid tolerance response [ATR] that protects against extreme acidity. ATR is expressed approximately half an hour after exposure to mild acidic conditions. Therefore for the ATR to be of benefit, it must take place before Salmonella encounters the extreme acid conditions of the stomach. This process might explain the outbreaks associated with orange juice contaminated with Salmonella."

 

As I pointed out, isn't this the exact opposite of what we have been told about acid environments?

[Fair Play]

When you read all this "Information" you wonder why the hell we ever decided to keep pigeons all in all there are fanciers who have used various types of different "Medicines" with success so who am I to say they are wrong.I would advocate the nearer to nature the better, sometimes a boost is needed but use it sparingly

[Taylorsloft]

 

No, I use cider vinegar as I was led to believe its use in drinking water helped to combat all harmful bacteria. I think others use it believing the same. My point was that it may have this general affect on bacteria, but not salmonella.

 

This is taken from a chapter about Innate Host Defenses in Salmonellosis:

 

"Mild acidic conditions increase the ability of many pathogenic bacteria to survive radical acid stress, such as encountered in the stomach's PH 1 or 2. These include Shigella, E coli and Salmonella which are capable of mounting an acid tolerance response [ATR] that protects against extreme acidity. ATR is expressed approximately half an hour after exposure to mild acidic conditions. Therefore for the ATR to be of benefit, it must take place before Salmonella encounters the extreme acid conditions of the stomach. This process might explain the outbreaks associated with orange juice contaminated with Salmonella."

 

As I pointed out, isn't this the exact opposite of what we have been told about acid environments?

 

thats not what they are saying on alberta classic and thats from a vet  

[Guest Owen]

Just a point. Apple cider vinegar also contains a wide variety of vitamins and minerals. And when you talk about the acidifying the gut also remember that you should be giving fresh grit every day which contains limestone. Limestone will provide a high ph to counteract the acidity of the vinegar. Besides, ACV should be given at low doses, but regularly. It is much the same with citric acid and garlic.

I think "Moderation" is key here.