use antibiotics/ sickness

[Guest]

 

 

  IB I HAVE BEEN RACING BIRDS FOR FORTY YEARS WITH OUT A BREAK BOB WHYTE AND GEORGE RITCHIE WHICH I MY SELF WOULD CLASS THE BEST THERES BEEN AT DISTANCES AND ALL HAVE TREATED BLIND FOR WORMS COCCI AND CANKER BLIND MY MOTTO IF IN DOUBT KEEP IT OUT NO MONEY IS SPARRED WITH ME REGARDING MY BIRDS OLD YELLOW NO NEED TO SHOW CARDS I SPEAK ABOUT THE FAMILY OF BIRDS I FLY WHICH HAS WON SNFC 1ST 2ND 5TH 6TH 7TH 16TH 17TH 18TH 29TH 41ST 46TH 54TH 55TH 58TH 62ND 70TH 78TH 83RD 87TH 93RD 100TH THIS IS OPEN POSITIONS NOT BAD FOR THE SAME FAMILY OF BIRDSSTORM QUEEN OF THE LATE GEORGE RITCHIE INVERALLOCHY AND WE COULD MAME A LOT MORE ONLY MENTIONED 1ST 100 YES THATS BY TREATING EVERY YEAR ONCE IFOR ONE WILL CARRY ON TREATING EVERY YEAR BEFORE PAIRING UP  

 

Slightly off thread, but you fail to mention Five o clock rock, tremendous admiration for you Mr Masson as a great fancier as well as Ritchie and Whyte, who supplied me a bird to breed me one of my best pigeons ever out of Storm Queen.

Yes thunderbolt I have used baytril in the past to control gunk in the throat. And now I use prior to vaccinating for paratyphus. I have no doubt that Walter is 100% geneuine in saying he does not treat. However I am also in no doubt that 70% + of fanciers do. I have used amoxycylin, sulphamezathine and general wormer during racing for maintenance and of course treated for canker which I think is the route of all evil and as the result of the kindness of  a member on here I have a few more items I have never used in the medicine cabinet. Why do I use medicines; three reasons the birds will come in to contact with other carriers, I have sparrows regularly going in to my loft and the modern birds do not have the constitution the likes that have been built up by the storm queen and five o clock rock strains, wish I had a loft full of them!! And with wild birds coming in to the loft and some damp as well, I don't like the environment but I'm trying to sort that but I need to find a new loft location.

Oh I suppose one other thing it's fashionable (stupid reason I know but I lived in the land of sheep) and it didn't stop my birds doing well at 470 and 560 mile this year.

 

[Guest]

how many fancier treat for paratyphoid and do you use antibiotics before. :-/

[hotrod]

albear you have hit the nail on th head , if you keep your birds in an aviary they don't come into contact with outside disease sources ,ie, sparrows and other birds,any mice running around at night pi$$ing on the ground sh!tting as well, a lot of factors which no matter how clean your loft is and what you give them ,they can pick up just about anything so if it happens during  the race season what do you do, stop for the season? or do you try and FIX the problem? i know what i would  do .

[jimmy white]

 

 

FRAnk all the top national flyers that i know all treat for cocci canker worms ive the same mind as yourself if all fanciers did this at the start of season there wont be so much passed in race panniers common sense  8) 8) 8)

 

yes, in my opinion, common sense indeed by the same token,it is also common sense,  if many fanciers put their pigeons through less stress,,,,, i,e overcrowding,wild pigeons, more  ventilation, less "hammering" down the road , grabbing birds in mid-air , banging them in a basket, rushing to the training point, out the boot,,no water,, release :)etc etc  there are many factors that can cause needless stress , these factors  can  very well, up the level of cocci, canker, and even worms and indeed the cause of many secondry infections too  

[joe61]

mind the old ticker hotrod mate

 

oh happy days

[hotrod]

mind the old ticker hotrod mate

 

oh happy days

i'm fine joe how are you ? i hate all these so called now it alls.Nobody does mate.

 

 

[Guest]

how many fancier treat for paratyphoid and do you use antibiotics before. :-/

 

If you vaccinate you should always treat before hand with Baytril or equivalent to clean them first, I understand if you don't and you have salmanella or e coli then it may knock your birds over.

There is an another debate too about vaccine, last year I vaccinated with a 'live' vaccine, this year (end of 2008) it is not available because of distribution issues from the manufacturer. I have used a 'dead' vaccine. The person supplying the live vaccine told me dead doesn't work.

Well I've tried to make enquiries and it seems that the life of protection from dead is less than from live but other than that they both offer protection. I am not an expert and do not claim to be but the problem is neither are the local vets!

[thunderboult]

albear you have hit the nail on th head , if you keep your birds in an aviary they don't come into contact with outside disease sources ,ie, sparrows and other birds,any mice running around at night pi$$ing on the ground sh!tting as well, a lot of factors which no matter how clean your loft is and what you give them ,they can pick up just about anything so if it happens during  the race season what do you do, stop for the season? or do you try and FIX the problem? i know what i would  do .

 

hi hotrod, if it was only given because somebody had a problem during the season then yes i'd agree fully with you, but i think a lot of fancier's are giving them every week or before every big race and not because the birds have something wrong.  

[joe61]

yes im fine mate you keep the thread going its interesting then when the fighting starts bale out

 

oh happy days

[gangster]

yes im fine mate you keep the thread going its interesting then when the fighting starts bale out

 

oh happy days

 

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D...you crack me up...lol

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

how many fancier treat for paratyphoid and do you use antibiotics before. :-/

 

Yes have done for the last couple of years which was with Parastop, never used antibiotics or vaccinated as was told by the manufacture that there was not a need to.

 

 

[thunderboult]

 

looking at your previous posts on this subject , prooves your point,,,,loft management doesnt come out a bottle, yet still, fanciers will still  nit pick on direct proof  :-/ [they dont like know  alls ;D ;D] ,,, old" sir colin" was never treated for anything , excepting a yeast tab [vit b] and the odd c.l.o. capsule ,, he was the first bird into scotland flying over 600 miles snfc  [2cnd national] many other  top positions winning over £5000 .

anyway o,y, when you mention avi-form ultimate,,    i see that  this product is  somewhat weaker than of old,, it used to be very thicklike syrup  , but not so nowadays,, is this because theve thinned it down for less value for our cash, or for any other reason ?? [i beleive this contains vit b, is this true also ]

hi, i know a couple of years ago they had to take 1 of the ingredients out(when all those new licensing laws came out) it contains vitamins a,d3,e,b1,b2,b6,b12,k3  nicotinamide,panthanol,folic acid,biotin,dimethylglycine,antibac+pigeonguard

 

[walterbmasson]

 

 

  albear treat before you pair up for cocci canker worms safe guards your future young birds dont treat its possible your doing your young birds no good let your youngsters have a good start to life i also treat my youngsters 3 weeks in the blind they have never let me down at the distance albear the last post i put in was just a way of saying any weakness in a bird when under stress it will not win put in that supreme effort plenty time to send for dropping test if birds not performing up to expectation  8) 8) 8)

[Guest IB]

ian youyr totally wrong mate most of these are not as you say antibiotics , the come into the cattegory of antimicrobial's and these groups of treatments are protozoicide's ,NOT antibiotics (amoxycillin,ampicillin,chloramphenicol,erythromycin,gentomycin,lincomycin,neomycin,penicillin,quinolone,spectinomycin,spiramycin,streptomycin,tetracyclines,tiamulinand tylosin) these are antbiotics .I have a book as well mate so you can stop with the know it all thing mr vet

 

Stuart, to put things into their proper perspective: I have had a life-long interest in 'animals' and particularly in what makes them 'tick' - I did certain subjects at Secondary school in the 1960's - zoology and botany; and on the human side, anatomy, physiology and health, and I still follow that interest to this day, learning new things as I go along.

 

Also when I post, I post information for others as well as any direct reply to the person who asked the question. It was never my intention to either appear a know-it-all, or quote out a book - I cited where the information that I'd posted might be had, or checked ..

 

One of the things I have learned since starting back in pigeons, is what you've just demonstrated: pigeon fanciers in the main don't know what they are using, and in this case, we'll call it antibiotics. You've mentioned antimicrobial. These terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but from a purist viewpoint an antibiotic orgiginally was a substance produced by one microbe which killed another; the earliest example is penicillin produced by a mould that kills bacteria. An antimicrobial is not produced by anything living, it is produced in a lab by re-engineering the molecules of the living substance. An example is pyrethrin a safe insecticide from flowers, and pyrethroids, 100 times stronger and lethal to fish.

 

When pigeon vets write about misuse of antibiotics they are writing about the preventative 'run-of-the-mill' blind treatments pigeon fanciers use for canker, cocci and worms, which has created superbugs in pigeons. I'm not a vet - but I listen to all sides of the debate, make my own further enquiries, and act according to my findings and beliefs.

 

I test first, then treat if necessary...  

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

they removed the mollases based from the Aviform ultimate but i mix my own and add the mollases back to it , however was brought to my attension a few days ago that Taylors Choice sell it now as black majic , however Aviform are buy one get one free so still cheaper to mix your own IMO

[walterbmasson]

 

 

 

  ib you say you test your birds first then treat but surly you cant tell by testing a few birds wipe it out first all the better for your birds and puts your mind at rest that that its been radified out of all birds and there sound before racing starts but with fanciers like your self and old yellow the very first race bi rds being fead in baskets just think what trouble that could be doing to other fanciers birds i put that down to so many loses later on when the birds comes under stress again i repeat if every boady was doing it it certainly stop a lot of birds getting infected stupidly i am sure theres more damage done by injecting for paramoxy but we all do it but yet theres more cocci canker worms  --------------- AND YOU DONT TREAT ALL YOUR BIRDS I THINK YOUR KIDDING US  > > >

[BLACK W F]

Walter years ago it was common practice to treat before pairing for cocci canker  and worms   but for some reason that escapes me they are not happy unless they are filling their birds up with  antibiotics and in most cases killing the immune system thats why there is all the disesses going around today

cheers Alan

[OLDYELLOW]

think about the over treated birds with a severerly compromised immune system , this poor bird wont have the constitution to face the stresses of training and the race basket and if looked after in a proper way from the offset the stress of racing wouldnt be too much for it , i think you would be right to be upset that our birds immune system would be stronger and more vigiourous to not be as easily supceptable to infections because of there remarkable constitution , unlike a bird propped up with medicines doing more harm than could see a basket come back ill and much easier to blame everyone elses birds than look at how there birds got so weak , a wild bird that gets ill doesnt see a vet it dies its natures way

[Guest]

 

looking at your previous posts on this subject , prooves your point,,,,loft management doesnt come out a bottle, yet still, fanciers will still  nit pick on direct proof  :-/ [they dont like know  alls ;D ;D] ,,, old" sir colin" was never treated for anything , excepting a yeast tab [vit b] and the odd c.l.o. capsule ,, he was the first bird into scotland flying over 600 miles snfc  [2cnd national] many other  top positions winning over £5000 .

anyway o,y, when you mention avi-form ultimate,,    i see that  this product is  somewhat weaker than of old,, it used to be very thicklike syrup  , but not so nowadays,, is this because theve thinned it down for less value for our cash, or for any other reason ?? [i beleive this contains vit b, is this true also ]

 

Jimmy they say horses for courses, I also believe in 'a time and place'.

The difference between now and then is big. I'm reiterating what I've written before but I still think it's valid. If you take humans as an example when I was a child in the 50's I nearly died because of a burst appendix, I was out cold for 3  days after the op, today the chances of my lad going through the same are remote. Youngsters had polio, today not so (though is reappearing I understand) measles regular as clockwork; nearly disappeared in this country until people stopped vaccinating because of MMR fears, now it is a danger again. The anti vaccination league blamed everything on MMR, parents worried about their kids stopped vaccinating out of fear. Now it's finally accepted the threats weren't there (though of course with any health program some may face reaction). There are fanciers on here that seem to have eaten a medical dictionary for breakfast and also appear to have digested the contents! How many of these same fanciers have relied on modern medicine to cure them of ills, how many take a tablet everyday for whatever, and how many now live in to their 80s whereas when I was a lad males lasted to the end of their 60s.

There is no doubt we have become reliant as a society on drugs, the draw backs of course are that we have super bugs, even our Hospitals cannot maintain a sterile environment, we have C Dif, Noro virus, flesh eating disease. I believe directly as a result of our use of drugs that this has happened we have lost our resistance, immunity levels have gone down. It’s the same with life style. Until I was 15 years of age we had no hot water, coal fire, nothing else, had to bathe in a tin bath, (used to give me the collywobbles) outside toilet and for toilet paper? Newspaper! I use to have circuit fitness training two or three times a week, play Rugby Saturday morning, football in the afternoon. Always out played sport all year around. Today my heating broke down yesterday, ok I’m getting older but I’m cold and it’s not even cold today, when I was young never felt it. When I played rugby I could run in to a brick wall and not get hurt, today the dog jumps on me and might even bruise me! I’m soft as are we all, well perhaps not all!

The above I think you can translate to our birds, look at the old lofts I remember the old ramshackle lofts on the sides of the valleys, open to the elements , you used to get birds from Thurso even if you were behind, today if they’re not on the winning day many don’t come. Look at the modern disease paramixo, YB sickness, though some old timers will say they were about 50 years ago; but I don’t think anyone can dispute there are new superbugs that will be a threat to our birds.

As fanciers we have a conundrum, do we live with survival of the fittest and do we resign ourselves to be partially non competitive or do we medicate possibly damage our birds

Survival of the fittest

Perhaps I’m getting soft in my old age but I care about my birds and I hate losing any. From my perspective I look at this way. If a Doctor tells me my son needs treating ‘x’ way and if I don’t he will be endangered I will every time go with the doctor’s advice. But the Vet?? I’ll answer that further on.

I said about being partially competitive, this is a generalisation but I think a fair one, the fanciers who do not treat are in a minority and tend to be the long distance fanciers. They have a better chance because to have a loft of quality 500/700 milers the birds have to have the’ best’ constitutions and because of this will have the greatest resistance and immunity. And if the birds have been bred from generations of their ilk they will be resistant. But such birds are not going to be competitive at 100 /300 mile for example (as a general rule) these birds tend to be faster, of a different build and constitution. As fanciers we often talk about constitution and think that birds with great constitutions are superior, well yes if you want to fly Barcelona but they are not perhaps if you want to win from the sprints. So what do you do if you want to win the sprints where that tenth of a yard makes the difference your pigeon needs to be right on top of its game and if it has got something then it’s not going to win, because these birds don’t have iron constitutions. A treatment program is far more essential to keep these pigeons in optimum condition. There will be fanciers who win consistently at sprints  and don’t medicate but I am convinced these are rare.

Coming back to the conundrum if my birds don’t seem right I will do whatever is needed to get them right, I’m afraid I’m not one whose psyche can sit by and let only the fittest survive. I don’t see anything wrong with that and would compare it to the way for example I would deal with my son.

The route of pigeon fancier’s problems when it comes to medication is not medicating but having the right advice to do this. After all if my boy is unwell he goes to the doctors if my birds are unwell they don’t go to the vets.

When I lived up North I had the privilege of having as my vet the one who used to write in the Homing World, a lovely guy who sadly died at a young age with MS. Whenever I went to him we would discuss the birds and I would tell him how I wanted to treat my birds and why; he provided the expertise in terms of the drug and the right dosage. When he died I went to another vet in the practice and as was the case took one pigeon with me. The first words uttered were gosh this bird has some muscle and very smooth feathering, compared to the normal pigeons [streeties] he dealt with. He didn’t have a clue about pigeons, he asked me what I wanted and I got them! In fairness I was not charged a consultation fee (never was there). But the vet knew nothing.

When I moved down to the West Country took the dog for his yearly vac and asked if  they had any pigeon fanciers on their books or any experience of treating them. Was told their expertise was with cats, dogs and farm animals. Haven’t taken my birds there. If I could get a decent Vet I would go regular and follow her/his advice.

As I can’t I’ve tried to learn and talk to other fanciers and solve that way but to have routine medication during racing. It’s modern times I’m afraid and maybe reflected in where we live to. You have to make your choice and have the utmost respect for the non medication guys but it’s not for me.

Sorry if it's incoherent took a bit of time to spew that out.

[Guest]

 

  albear treat before you pair up for cocci canker worms safe guards your future young birds dont treat its possible your doing your young birds no good let your youngsters have a good start to life i also treat my youngsters 3 weeks in the blind they have never let me down at the distance albear the last post i put in was just a way of saying any weakness in a bird when under stress it will not win put in that supreme effort plenty time to send for dropping test if birds not performing up to expectation  8) 8) 8)

 

Hi Walter I only treat my YB for canker having said that I lightly race my YB, for OB though during racng I do have a program for respritory, canker and anti fungal.

[just ask me]

how many fancier treat for paratyphoid and do you use antibiotics before. :-/

 

as far i was told it is pointless if u dont and from what im reading its saying that u should do this

 

also i think if u treat during racing season and leave alone after that cant see it causing too much problems haven't caused me any problems yet

 

i think its a must as the way our transporters are set up its a joke

 

why do mix birds from different lofts in one basket makes no sense at all this is a major cause of cross infection

 

with new transporters watering system working on a overflow system all it takes is one or two birds to infect the whole lot

 

why why why do we do this

[Roland]

Had a samonella carrier off of a good name flyer when had six of him. Of course droppings etc. don't show this up.  Very rarely treat for any thing, hardly ever, if at at all used antibiotics. Canker and going light in earliers starting seasons.

Never had - like most in one club - young bird sickness.

Strangely enough, and in the middle of doing my final part of my cleansing regime, and saturating the loft with Lime, which I make a middle thick paint like of it and paint it all inside and out with lime a few times. May just coat over later with another real paint. Been Vykrolled, bleached and blow torched already again this season. Nowt can, or will be harboured in my loft now. Antibotics, don't need them.... If 30 are fine, and one isn't, and removed andstill a week later the others are still fine, then the cause is already been seperated, and won'[t be fixed up to go back. Yes going light etc. may make an exception...  but most like;ly not.

[hotrod]

yes im fine mate you keep the thread going its interesting then when the fighting starts bale out

 

oh happy days

joe i was away doing a wee job  mate, im back , i lit the fuse then bu@@ered off lol

 

[hotrod]

 

hi hotrod, if it was only given because somebody had a problem during the season then yes i'd agree fully with you, but i think a lot of fancier's are giving them every week or before every big race and not because the birds have something wrong.  

well thunder if there is fanciers out there doing that then a few years of success then night night their done , gone until new birds have been brought in

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

 

  ib you say you test your birds first then treat but surly you cant tell by testing a few birds wipe it out first all the better for your birds and puts your mind at rest that that its been radified out of all birds and there sound before racing starts but with fanciers like your self and old yellow the very first race bi rds being fead in baskets just think what trouble that could be doing to other fanciers birds i put that down to so many loses later on when the birds comes under stress again i repeat if every boady was doing it it certainly stop a lot of birds getting infected stupidly i am sure theres more damage done by injecting for paramoxy but we all do it but yet theres more cocci canker worms  --------------- AND YOU DONT TREAT ALL YOUR BIRDS I THINK YOUR KIDDING US  > > >

 

When I go to the vet, I get my money's worth.  ;D I did a pooled loft sample, 4 test tubes, one for each section, each housing approximately 12 birds. I mark each label where the sample came from, and what's in there (YB / OB).  

 

My results were a significant cocci count, significant numbers to cause disease, and the highest counts were in the OBs, where they should have been in YBs which were moderate levels (avian vet opinion, not mine).

 

Loft sample = loft treatment, so I was given Sulphanilamide solution (an antibiotic) dose 30ml per 5 litres of water for 5 days.

 

3 days after the treatment ended, I did another pooled sample, 2 test tubes this time, and the result came back clear.

 

The difference between us is simple: (1) If I treat, I do not expect the problem to come back and (2) it is a proper course of treatment, supervised by an avian vet so dose and duration are spot on.-

 

the first year (not a vet) I was told canker (background levels) and not to treat because they are necessary to maintain immunity against deadlier strains; a touch of cocci (treat);

 

the second year (vet1) I had low levels of cocci, and he advised not to treat because they are necessary to maintain immunity against them. I had hairworm, and I treated.

 

the third year had I come back positive for hairworm again, I would be worried.