Pros & Cons of Medicating

[holmsidelofts]

There is no substitute for good healthy birds, in a well ventilated dry loft with the proper management thats what makes birds win. You cannot keep birds free of disease if you mix them in the basket with other fanciers birds. You can do what ever you want at your own loft but the moment you put them in the basket with other birds you are at the mercy of everyone else. Your birds are NOT safe from disease in the pannier thats why its important to monitor there health correctly and if required treat them with the correct medication. Not blind treatment. Strapper is exactly right when he says it the fancier who kills the immune system. Pigeon that are kept healthy will always beat the unhealthy ones. An example of this is worms. the moment you put healthy birds in a basket with birds that are carrying worms theres a very high chance that that healthy bird will pick them up as they are transmitted in the basket via the droppings. 1 worm is 1 to many and robs the bird of valuable nutrients, hairworm also cause terrible damage to the gut lining if present. There is NO natural products out there that will kill worms as an example so you have no choice but to treat with chemical products.  One of the best things that a fancier can buy is Dr Collin Walkers flying vet pigeon health management. ok its a £35 book but is worth £100 in my opinion you learn more about pigeon health from this book like no other.

[naedoos]

 

performance enhancing...means that you can perform better..its doesnt mean that you can become faster then you could possibly be..theres a saying......you cant get out what god didnt put in!..

as i said ...the speed you can run at is what you can run at...wether you dont achieve it its up to you...but you cant do something thats physicly impossible.

the items you mention are there to maintain fitness that normally/naturally you cannot maintain..but you can possibly achieve! through taking drugs...i didnt say performance enhancing drugs dont work..what i said is what they make you achieve is what you could do anyhow...there is a difference.

 

drugs make you perform at the best of your ability..

 

 

Bet there's a few athletes out there that wish you were on the panel  ;D ;D ;D

 

[Guest Owen]

There is nothing I could add to what strapper and holmside lofts have said on this subject. However, I would like to correct a misunderstanding. naedoos thinks that because I use modern health management methods that it is contradiction to say that I am looking for birds that are naturally healthy. I see no contradiction at all. Surely you would agree that certain individuals inherit that extra fitness and vitality that mark them out from their fellows. I think you can see this in all animals and birds and, come to that, people. So I want healthy birds, because I look after them by being aware of their health profiles, and I also want the vitality that comes via the genes.

In practice, this means that at the end of each year I weed my loft just as I do my garden. And in addition I never breed from birds that have done nothing on the road. They all get their chance and I don't make excuses for them. They either perform or they don't. Those that don't are removed from the team. And yes you are right they will be healthy but unsuitable.

My other rule is that I do not believe that I should breed from birds that out of this that or the other thing just because an advert says so. If you are fool enough to believe the sales adverts, pigeon racing would be easy. But it is not for most of us, is it?

[shweet]

I know its pigeons we are ment to be talking about but I have to dis-agree with you strapper there slightly because natural bodybuilders cannot compete with the bodybuilders on steroids and cannot produce a phisique in the same catergory which is why most proffesional bodybuilders in competition are not tested for drugs.  Bodybuilding is the only sport that is not tested because they are looking for monsters and this is probably why they wont make it illegal for people to use them in most countrys,  including the UK.  But I do agree with the use of Medication propely though.  If people had not have used medication in this country then T.B,  tettinuss,  measels,  mumps,  etc etc would still be rife and if my mate hadnt had gone and got tested for chlimidia,  he would never had known he had even got it,  PMSL.

[Guest strapper]

I know its pigeons we are ment to be talking about but I have to dis-agree with you strapper there slightly because natural bodybuilders cannot compete with the bodybuilders on steroids and cannot produce a phisique in the same catergory which is why most proffesional bodybuilders in competition are not tested for drugs.  Bodybuilding is the only sport that is not tested because they are looking for monsters and this is probably why they wont make it illegal for people to use them in most countrys,  including the UK.  But I do agree with the use of Medication propely though.  If people had not have used medication in this country then T.B,  tettinuss,  measels,  mumps,  etc etc would still be rife and if my mate hadnt had gone and got tested for chlimidia,  he would never had known he had even got it,  PMSL.

 

hi m8..i know where your coming from but i was using the explanation to describe speed and performance in pigeons and athletes...bodybuilders are a different kettle of fish..but even those cant move faster ..actually they move slower....pmsl at your m8. ;D ;Dwas clamidia his girlfriends name ? ;D ;D

[shweet]

lol I think there was more than 1,  lol.  And its true body builders do move a lot slower.

[Roland]

My birds dropping were nigh brill. Then we have the clowns around with fireworks. Bit messy now.

Yes had blake then out etc. Now moved then to the front.... a little quieter. Yes the droppings won't be back to good  for a week or so I suppose.

Am i worried :-/ Not in the least.

Gosh my dropping change after a good Niss up. Or when took Lctuse etc.

Or if I've eaten a lot of protein. Glad Joyce doesn't keep nipping down to the chemist and mixing my meals with anything her mates recomend, or seen on Tv -or any other Money making scam....  ;D ;D ;D

[Novice]

 

Sorry mate check you facts. that is how bicarbonate of soda is made thats from a scientific journal and can be found online if you do some research. Look up bicarbonate of soda on wikipedia for one. As stated the common process of making bicarb is with that method.

Do some research before you comment on something you obviously no nothing about.

Ammonia is used in the production of bicarbonate of soda so nitrogen would have been present to be able to produce the ammonia in the first place.

 

basic science my friend.

 

Firstly before asking me to check my facts you need to be aware that I have an honours degree in Chemistry and 40 years experience working in the Chemical industry in a variety of posts.

I am afraid you are reading information and not understanding it properly.

It does not matter what ingredients are used in the production of any compound there are none of them remaining in the end product. All unreacted reactants are washed out and that product purified till it is 100% pure. The reaction is irreversible and the reactants cannot be regenerated.

Sodium Bicarbonate is exactly that---100%---no impurities of any kind.

The formula is NaHCO3. This is a combination of 1 Sodium and 1 Hydrogen with 1 carbonyl group. That is the composition of the humble Sodium Bicarbonate molecule. There is no Nitrogen or Ammonia present so you cannot be giving Ammonia to the birds.

 

Wine is made by the fermentation of Grapes and yeast in it's simplest form. Try what you may with a bottle of red you will never regenerate the original grapes.

 

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.  

    

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

There is nothing I could add to what strapper and holmside lofts have said on this subject. However, I would like to correct a misunderstanding. naedoos thinks that because I use modern health management methods that it is contradiction to say that I am looking for birds that are naturally healthy. I see no contradiction at all. Surely you would agree that certain individuals inherit that extra fitness and vitality that mark them out from their fellows. I think you can see this in all animals and birds and, come to that, people. So I want healthy birds, because I look after them by being aware of their health profiles, and I also want the vitality that comes via the genes.

In practice, this means that at the end of each year I weed my loft just as I do my garden. And in addition I never breed from birds that have done nothing on the road. They all get their chance and I don't make excuses for them. They either perform or they don't. Those that don't are removed from the team. And yes you are right they will be healthy but unsuitable.

My other rule is that I do not believe that I should breed from birds that out of this that or the other thing just because an advert says so. If you are fool enough to believe the sales adverts, pigeon racing would be easy. But it is not for most of us, is it?

 

i think he was refering to your treating for paramixo and paratyphoid twice a year surely why treat blind cant you get it off your microscope ????? and why twice when paramixo only need doing yearly ?

[dwh]

here we go again strapper looks like we opened a can of worms funny where talking bout watery green s*** gets you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Guest kev d]

good post novice, this is one good thread ive been using bi carb for years now

you would be very suprised how many use it with out telling any one ive had loads of pm about

bi carb and how to use it .

[OLDYELLOW]

salt has been used for 1,000's of years to treat ailments wounds , why well because treated meat ( salted meat ) would keep longer and be preserved from bacteria via the salt so i can see the reasoning for the bicarb of soda , if you want to read about salts effects on the pigeon theres an article and compares a fasting pigeon with a mallard very intresting indeed  

[Novice]

 

Firstly before asking me to check my facts you need to be aware that I have an honours degree in Chemistry and 40 years experience working in the Chemical industry in a variety of posts.

I am afraid you are reading information and not understanding it properly.

It does not matter what ingredients are used in the production of any compound there are none of them remaining in the end product. All unreacted reactants are washed out and that product purified till it is 100% pure. The reaction is irreversible and the reactants cannot be regenerated.

Sodium Bicarbonate is exactly that---100%---no impurities of any kind.

The formula is NaHCO3. This is a combination of 1 Sodium and 1 Hydrogen with 1 carbonyl group. That is the composition of the humble Sodium Bicarbonate molecule. There is no Nitrogen or Ammonia present so you cannot be giving Ammonia to the birds.

 

Wine is made by the fermentation of Grapes and yeast in it's simplest form. Try what you may with a bottle of red you will never regenerate the original grapes.

 

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.  

    

 

 

Further to the above post I would also add that the Ammonia used in the Solvay process is a catalyst used to buffer the pH during the reaction to ensure that the correct product is formed.

A catalyst simply helps a reaction to go to completion and takes no part in the reaction.

 

 

[Guest strapper]

just a little info found on bi-carbonate of soda interesting!

 

Side Effects

 

Many athletes have abandonned using bicarbonate of soda aid their running as they experience side effects of indigestion and diarrhoea, which clearly inhibit performance. It is possible that they are taking the wrong dosage and also that the addition of sodium citrate to the supplement would help this. However, it is a far from uncommon side effect and is something the athlete should be aware of before trying it. NEVER try this for the first time on race day!

 

now i thought bi-carb was to stop watery droppings where it clearly states a side effect of diarrhoea.

what i would say,what its doing is curing a bad guts that we humans have(when we have the runs) ...but in all seriousness its good for that and just that.

 

but anything that can help the fancy is helpfull either way.

[Guest Owen]

Sorry, I mislead you there. I vaccinate the youngsters for paramixo twice each year. And I vaccinate for paratyphoid once. The adults are vaccinated once each year for both.

And no, I dont want to wait to allow the birds to become infected before I look for it. The idea of vaccinations are to build the birds' immunity before they become infected. And the reason I do the young birds twice is because I know that there is a measure of immunity in some of them from their parents. This would interfere with the action of the vaccine.  So I make sure that none are missed by doing them twice.

Just to put this into context. The paramixo is a matter of law. We are obliged to vaccinate according to law. And in any case it would be impossible to treat because it is a virus. I think most of us would agree that both these diseases are rife these days and I think it is common sense to vaccinate. I am sure that when we put our birds into the race panniers, we are running the risk of having them infected by the clowns who will not bother to do what they are suposed to do. If you want evidence of this you only have to look at the number of pigeons that are lousey. Lice are easy to clear but a lot can't even bother to do that.

I once kept sheep and cattle and both these animals were vaccinated as a matter of course. And I think everyone knows that dogs have to be vaccinated to protect them from nasty diseases that would kill them. When I was a soldier and we were sent abroad we were vaccinated. And surely everyone knows that polio was stamped out through a programme of vaccinations. Then there was the terrible disease that killed a great many people called smallpox. That to was stamped out using systematic vaccinations.

I think I have made a reasonable case as to my personal attitude to the health care of my pigeons. So there my case will rest.

To persue this topic any more would be wasting my time and engaging in arguement for arguement sake. So that is all I will want to say on the subject. Those who want to show how clever they are can go ahead and try to impress those who want be impressed.

I hope common sense will prevail.    

[Guest IB]

There is no substitute for good healthy birds, in a well ventilated dry loft with the proper management thats what makes birds win. You cannot keep birds free of disease if you mix them in the basket with other fanciers birds. You can do what ever you want at your own loft but the moment you put them in the basket with other birds you are at the mercy of everyone else. Your birds are NOT safe from disease in the pannier thats why its important to monitor there health correctly and if required treat them with the correct medication. Not blind treatment. Strapper is exactly right when he says it the fancier who kills the immune system. Pigeon that are kept healthy will always beat the unhealthy ones. An example of this is worms. the moment you put healthy birds in a basket with birds that are carrying worms theres a very high chance that that healthy bird will pick them up as they are transmitted in the basket via the droppings. 1 worm is 1 to many and robs the bird of valuable nutrients, hairworm also cause terrible damage to the gut lining if present. There is NO natural products out there that will kill worms as an example so you have no choice but to treat with chemical products.  One of the best things that a fancier can buy is Dr Collin Walkers flying vet pigeon health management. ok its a £35 book but is worth £100 in my opinion you learn more about pigeon health from this book like no other.

 

Lots of talk about the immune system, but in my opinion there is very little true understanding of what it really is. Two instances of that here  [1] NOT safe from disease, No natural remedies - yet we and our birds are surrounded by potential dissease-causing organisms, potential because our bodies contain an array of weapons genetically programmed to fight them off, without us even knowing it's happening. [2] only medication shifts worms ~ well evolution is a double-edged sword, and we both have 'white blood cells' specially adapted to take care of worms -  eosinophils - for me it would be inconceivable had evolution not equipped us with this protection.

[dwh]

good 4 u owen

[holmsidelofts]

 

Lots of talk about the immune system, but in my opinion there is very little true understanding of what it really is. Two instances of that here  [1] NOT safe from disease, No natural remedies - yet we and our birds are surrounded by potential dissease-causing organisms, potential because our bodies contain an array of weapons genetically programmed to fight them off, without us even knowing it's happening. [2] only medication shifts worms ~ well evolution is a double-edged sword, and we both have 'white blood cells' specially adapted to take care of worms -  eosinophils - for me it would be inconceivable had evolution not equipped us with this protection.

 

I dont disagree with that. if it wasnt for our immune system we would not be alive now. but it can only combat certain disease etc. it does a fantastic job of keeping us safe but there are limits to what it can do. It cant kill internal parasites  ie worms, It cant kill cancer, aids, polio, TB, hepatitis, the list goes on. thats why we rely on medical science to keep us alive. same for the pigeon natural remedies wont kill worms, cocci, canker, ecoli, ardanovirus, circo virus, salmonella etc. If it was that easy we would have issues with any of these.

 

If treatment is required get the correct treatment. Like owen i have made my point and will leave it up to everyone to make up there own mind. I know what i will be doing this year.

 

Good luck to all this coming season.

 

Jas.

 

[OLDYELLOW]

still not happy about the paromixo thing and vacinate twice ?  soilders have been campaigning for years about the cocktail of drugs they got before going to the gulf war causing serious illness sickness ectra so not all vaccinations are good Paramixo should be done annualy by the rules of the unions , if was done properly no birds would be missed ? as for paratyphoid its certainly not a requirement to treat for this as yet and what do you use live vaccine or dead vaccine ? it's been said only the live vaccine is effective but they will shed the live parathyphoid and expose more birds needlessly  :-/ surely if have a microscope then quite easily to test all pigeons on  a daily bases

[Guest IB]

 

I dont disagree with that. if it wasnt for our immune system we would not be alive now. but it can only combat certain disease etc. it does a fantastic job of keeping us safe but there are limits to what it can do. It cant kill internal parasites  ie worms, It cant kill cancer, aids, polio, TB, hepatitis, the list goes on. thats why we rely on medical science to keep us alive. same for the pigeon natural remedies wont kill worms, cocci, canker, ecoli, ardanovirus, circo virus, salmonella etc. If it was that easy we would have issues with any of these.

 

If treatment is required get the correct treatment. Like owen i have made my point and will leave it up to everyone to make up there own mind. I know what i will be doing this year.

 

Good luck to all this coming season.

 

Jas.

 

Like I said, not a lot of people understand. It CAN kill internal parasites  ie worms, It cant kill cancer, but SOME are immune to aids, and not everyone went down with polio [i was 1 year old during the last outbreak in Britain, I'd a cousin with it, but I didn't get it] I didn't get TB, nor hepatitis. And in the pigeon, immune system does kill worms, cocci, canker, ecoli, adenovirus, circo virus, salmonella. If it didn't pigeons - and us - would be extinct .

[holmsidelofts]

still not happy about the paromixo thing and vacinate twice ?  soilders have been campaigning for years about the cocktail of drugs they got before going to the gulf war causing serious illness sickness ectra so not all vaccinations are good Paramixo should be done annualy by the rules of the unions , if was done properly no birds would be missed ? as for paratyphoid its certainly not a requirement to treat for this as yet and what do you use live vaccine or dead vaccine ? it's been said only the live vaccine is effective but they will shed the live parathyphoid and expose more birds needlessly  :-/ surely if have a microscope then quite easily to test all pigeons on  a daily bases

 

unfortunately its not that easy, PMV is a virus and cant be detected with a light microscope and only detectable with an electron microscope. Paratyphoid is a bacteria, you can see bacteria under a microscope buts its impossible to determine what bacteria it is by just looking at it, the only way to tell is by going cultures in a lab oven which is not really practical at home and would be fairly dangerous as ecolli and salmonella  are killers in humans and you dont want exposure regardless of the strain. Owen and myself can only use the microscope to monitor worms, cocci, canker, yeast, thrush, hexamita etc. bacteria and virus's are left to the experts.

some vaccines do require doing twice a year and dead paratyphoid vaccine is one of them. thats why we use the live vaccine as it last for 1 year. hope this helps.

 

Jas.

 

[Roland]

Well Old Yellow and Co regards about the paromixo thing and vacinate twice. There was an interesting discussion on the Canada site Alberta Classic where some, Avian Vets included,  vacinated not just twice, but three or four times and stated as to why! 4 weeks then 6 weeks is getting widespread with a month later!

[OLDYELLOW]

 

unfortunately its not that easy, PMV is a virus and cant be detected with a light microscope and only detectable with an electron microscope. Paratyphoid is a bacteria, you can see bacteria under a microscope buts its impossible to determine what bacteria it is by just looking at it, the only way to tell is by going cultures in a lab oven which is not really practical at home and would be fairly dangerous as ecolli and salmonella  are killers in humans and you dont want exposure regardless of the strain. Owen and myself can only use the microscope to monitor worms, cocci, canker, yeast, thrush, hexamita etc. bacteria and virus's are left to the experts.

some vaccines do require doing twice a year and dead paratyphoid vaccine is one of them. thats why we use the live vaccine as it last for 1 year. hope this helps.

 

Jas.

 

then surely rather than expose birds unnessary to live bacteria which they shed exposing more birds to said virus is counter productive is it not ?  so my money would be lab testing where they have the facilitys , as you said you dont have the facilitys to see what treatments are spectrum specific to the ailment given , you might know which ailment but the correct treatment is where the vet comes in as can drop on the petry dish and see what has the best effect on the ailment

[OLDYELLOW]

Well Old Yellow and Co regards about the paromixo thing and vacinate twice. There was an interesting discussion on the Canada site Alberta Classic where some, Avian Vets included,  vacinated not just twice, but three or four times and stated as to why! 4 weeks then 6 weeks is getting widespread with a month later!

 

then surely this says the vaccination is been abused no wonder lofts are getting super strains of resistant paromixo virus vaccine as there been allowed to get more stronger via exposure to the vaccine

[Guest strapper]

still not happy about the paromixo thing and vacinate twice ?  soilders have been campaigning for years about the cocktail of drugs they got before going to the gulf war causing serious illness sickness ectra so not all vaccinations are good Paramixo should be done annualy by the rules of the unions , if was done properly no birds would be missed ? as for paratyphoid its certainly not a requirement to treat for this as yet and what do you use live vaccine or dead vaccine ? it's been said only the live vaccine is effective but they will shed the live parathyphoid and expose more birds needlessly  :-/ surely if have a microscope then quite easily to test all pigeons on  a daily bases

 

hi mark..one of the main advice given is when you suspect that you have pmv to vaccinate all healthy birds ,this is even if you have vaccinated already.

there is growing concern amongst fanciers the pmv vaccine isnt strong enough ..as there are countless reports of paramyxo appearing even when birds have been vaccinated.

 

paul from newport is a witness to this because i had advised him that the illness his birds had, could possibly be pmv...which i did believe it was...this was verified by the vet.

now his birds were vaccinated.

loads of cases of suspected pmv ,but without the head twisting.

now i get pm,d about this on here and on p/chat...more than anything else.

also i remember recently when colombovac stopped the production of the vaccine.

was there evidence of pmv getting stronger? weaker?..or mutating?..is there a cover up..we wont find out...either way.

i did read an article written by a very well respected vet stating that when pmv is about the kidneys can be affected thus shedding the watery droppings with the string like formation.

i do believe that pmv is about more than fanciers would care to admit ,and by doing so they are masking the true size of the problem.

also paratyphoid is on the increase...which one pigeon doctor in belgium believes that its a rare loft that doesnt have carriers of this dreadful illness.