Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped?

[REDCHEQHEN]

 

 

 

The gist (my concerns) are:-

 

(1)     There are over 2000 strains of Salmonella, supposedly only one (Copenhagen) can affect pigeons. According to John Gray’s paper on Salmonella DT104 on the web, DT104 has infected pigeons (and lots of other animals including humans) and is resistant to the antibiotics: ampicillin, chloramphenicol, streptomycin, sulfonamides, tetracycline, and fluroquinolone - often the only effective drugs for treating humans. Fluroquinolones include Baytril® and Parastop® . Yet this thread attempts to promote the use of both of these antibiotics in a way that endangers us humans, and our pigeons. The rest of the world is actively stopping misuse while pigeon people are actively promoting misuse.

 

 

(2)     The thread talks about the spread of salmonella – can it be stopped? – it promotes the use of antibiotics in the face of world advice that using antibiotics actually spreads Salmonella. If posts on here are to be believed and it is spreading like wildfire, and every pigeon in the world has it, well giving antibiotics hasn’t worked too well in the past, has it?

 

 

(3)     It clear from the thread that most fanciers don’t even know they are using antibiotics on their pigeons, and using stuff like Parastop that is not even authorized in the UK. They actively bring them in and share them out. Then they wonder why and how disease spreads.

 

 

I have never seen what is in parastop - and there is certainly more than one product of that name

De Weerd does not 'name' his products

 

[Guest IB]

The information on Parastop Active Ingredient was given earlier on this thread:

 

 

Norfloxacin is the active ingredient in Parastop. It is in the same "family" of drugs as ciprofloxacin hydrochloride (Cipro) and enrofloxacin (Baytril).

 

 

[Merlin]

 

 

 

Well I would like to aplaud your zeal and effort in finding and posting this info,I.B. and please keep doing so,its appreciated by many I am sure,of which I am one.

[Guest Freebird]

 

 

Well I would like to aplaud your zeal and effort in finding and posting this info,I.B. and please keep doing so,its appreciated by many I am sure,of which I am one.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

 

[little sam]

It can be preveted, But it cant be stopped

[Larry Lucas]

I found this very interesting (hope the link works)

 

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search/article?title=Racing+pigeons&title_type=tka&year_from=1998&year_to=2008&database=1&pageSize=20&index=13

 

The problem with this particular study is that it does not take into account the endemic nature of Salmonella in pigeon flocks. A better study would include stressing the birds and subsequently testing them for shedding. Even better, one group would have a 14 day "cure" with something like Parastop or Baytril, followed by vaccination. I strongly suspect these kinds of test subjects would give a different result. Not all research is good research because the preconceptions of the study may be faulty.

[Larry Lucas]

 

Hi Vic hopefully your birds will be back to normal for next year as well. Interested that you did it for 12 days what percentage of Baytril did you use and what rate, I've used 1ml tto 2 litre of 20%. I'd be interested why 12 days instead of 10. I wonder if Larry knows, would like to know for my own benefit becasue I'm due to treat and vaccinate shortly

 

Alan, sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a while -- been out of pocket with a little heart surgery. The avian vets here who also race pigeons recommend a minimum of 10 days, and most prefer 14 days with Baytril when it is used.

[Larry Lucas]

 

Alan, sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a while -- been out of pocket with a little heart surgery. The avian vets here who also race pigeons recommend a minimum of 10 days, and most prefer 14 days with Baytril when it is used.

 

Alan, sorry, I am a little out of it today. On dosage, let me quote Dr. Gord Chalmers:

 

Example 3 : You buy an antibiotic as a liquid. One example of such a liquid is a liter of a 10% solution of Baytril. A 10% solution means that there are 10 grams of Baytril in every 100 cc. There are 20 teaspoons in 100 cc (see chart), so there is ½ a gram (10÷20) or 500 mg of Baytril in each teaspoon. The dosage of Baytril for pigeons is 150-600 mg for 4 liters of water for 7-14 days. On a practical basis, in warm weather, you can use ½ teaspoon (250 mg) for 4 liters of water, and in colder weather, use 1 teaspoon for 4 liters of water.

 

Sometimes a turkey egg-dip solution of Baytril is available. It is a 3.23% solution, which means that you would use just over three times as much of this solution per 4 liters of water, as you would of the 10% solution.

 

You may be able to buy a 50 cc bottle of injectable Baytril from a veterinarian. Each cc of solution contains 50 mg of Baytril. In warm weather use 1 teaspoon of drug (250 mg) for 4 liters of water; in cold weather use 2 teaspoons (500 mg) in 4 liters of water.

[Guest Vic]

 

The problem with this particular study is that it does not take into account the endemic nature of Salmonella in pigeon flocks. A better study would include stressing the birds and subsequently testing them for shedding. Even better, one group would have a 14 day "cure" with something like Parastop or Baytril, followed by vaccination. I strongly suspect these kinds of test subjects would give a different result. Not all research is good research because the preconceptions of the study may be faulty.

May Vic, Thank Larrry once again. He, along with, our Canadian Vet, plus real genuine Irish Guys, who I think have  done a great job,  Vic applauds you , one and all. Right or wrong! You will all get the outcome of this dreaded mutatation (in my mind) that has 99% OF GB VETS FLUMMOXED. Merry Xmas to one and all.    

 

 

[Wiley]

It all boils down to results in the end tho doesn't it! Keeping canker, cocci and worms off the birds is esstential. I'd say 90% of successful fanciers have a health programme in place for their birds.

 

hmm, id go to the point many successful fanciers, that i know dont have a health programme by treating with antibiotics, but have a health programme involving preventatives, and i should add natural preventatives for cocci, canker, worms ect, and they will only treat when something is wrong. But they use plenty of vitamins, minerals ect if you understand what i mean, just like a proffessional athlete, they will take vitamins and minerals, to enhance there state of fitness, but they wouldnt take an antibiotic, unless they was ill, they like us wouldnt take an antibiotic, if they didnt have an illness as a preventative. But with there natural products vitamins, and minerals they take throughout there feeding system it helps to build a barrier against the common illness's.  

[Guest]

 

Alan, sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a while -- been out of pocket with a little heart surgery.

Larry sorry to hear that, hope you are recovering and able to enjoy xmas

Best wishes for a speedy recovery

Alan

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a while -- a little heart surgery.

 

Just seen this one. Best wishes for a speedy recovery now, and good health in the future.

[Guest IB]

This is one reply to two similar emails I have sent, asking for information on some questions asked on this thread. I have put in the answers I got directly under the questions. The return email is copied beneath this for verification. I hope it is helpful.

 

Hello again Ian,

 

Thank you for your reply to my questions on colombovac / pmv-1.

 

We are now having a discussion on Salmonella in racing pigeons. I note you have an authorised vaccine, Paratyphus Injection for Pigeons, and wondered if you could help? Any comments you have on the following would be most welcome.

 

(1)     I understand that there are more than 2000 strains of Salmonella bacteria. Paratyphus Injection for Pigeons is for the Copenhagen strain. Current opinion is that only Copenhagen can affect pigeons, yet according to John Gray’s paper on Salmonella DT104 on the web, DT104 has infected pigeons, lots of other animals, and humans. So the question is will your vaccine protect racing pigeons against other like Salmonella bacteria strains in the same way Jenner’s first discovery  that cow pox vaccine protected against smallpox, because the two (viral) strains were alike? If not why?

 

Crossprotection on Salmonella is limited, our product will protect against typhimurium var Copenhagen. The disease in pigeons is caused almost exclusively by S. typhimurium var. Copenhagen

 

(2)     Is there any fundamental difference in the body immune response between vaccinating against virus and vaccinating against bacteria given that both vaccines contain inactivated versions of a pathogen?

 

No fundamental difference

 

(3)     Opinion suggests Salmonella is rife in racing pigeons here in UK. Have you any information that verifies / contradicts that opinion?

 

Don't have any data on this one

 

 

(4)     There is a recommendation that vaccination should be preceded by a 10-day course of Baytril or Parastop. I understand that this is to ensure the pigeon is clear of Salmonella before vaccination? If the pigeon had previously been exposed to Salmonella and developed antibodies, would these same antibodies stop a subsequent vaccine taking effect, much in the same way as your Colombovac warning about PMV-1 maternal antibodies?

 

Previously formed antibodies against Salmonella will not influence vaccine take

 

 

 

(5)     Blind treatment of racing pigeons with an antibiotic like Parastop (bought from Belgium) – would this practice help prevent the spread of Salmonella? What effect on the immune system would this have on a pigeon free of  Salmonella, for example if it later encountered Salmonella?

 

Treatment will prevent the spread of Salmonella, however if the birds are kept in a contaminated loft effect will be limited as the birds will re infect. Antibiotic treatment will not affect the immune system

 

(6)     Lastly, availability of your own product. I have not seen it advertised in the pigeon press, yet opinion suggests there is a need for it in the UK. Salmonella vaccines are being bought from Belgium, illegally I believe, for use in UK. Why is yours not available here?

 

This vaccine should be available in UK sometime  next  year no precise date yet

 

 

Thank you,

> Ian

 

 

Ian

Some answers from Dr Wijmenga our technical services manager. This vaccine should be available in UK sometime  next  year no precise date yet

Happy Christmas

Ian

 

Ian,

 

as far as I can help:

 

1) Crossprotection on Salmonella is limited, our product will protect against

typhimurium var Copenhagen. The disease in pigeons is caused almost exclusively by S. typhimurium var. Copenhagen

 

2) No fundamental difference

3) Don't have any data on this one

4) Previously formed antibodies against Salmonella will not influence vaccine take

5) Treatment will prevent the spread of Salmonella, however if the birds are kept in

a contaminated loft effect will be limited as the birds will re infect. Antibiotic

treatment will not affect the immune system

 

Dr Willem Wijmenga

 

>>> Ian Church 22/12/08 12:16 >>>

Hi Willem

Can you please comment on his tech questions as you know I have no experience with this product

Happy Christmas

Ian

 

 

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

Gents, thanks for the good wishes. I don't bounce back like I once did when younger, but day by day I am feeling much better. Thanks.

[ribble]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RACING-PIGEON-MEDICATION_W0QQitemZ250350421610QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_AnimalCollectables_SM?hash=item250350421610&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[nittin vi]

let nature take its course

[Guest stevie-b]

the vet on the louis cooreman dvd tells u that salmonella can be vaccinated in the case of an oubreak in u r loft but vet needs to have one of u r pigeons to test so the correct vaccine for the correct strain is administered

[Guest Vic]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RACING-PIGEON-MEDICATION_W0QQitemZ250350421610QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_AnimalCollectables_SM?hash=item250350421610&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

         That's exactly the stuff I treated them with.

 

 

[Chairman]

Most of the paratyphus vaccine have inclusion of four or five most commonly identifiable strains that are likely to be infectous to racing pigeons.these are based on reports notifiable by Vetrinary's back to DEFRA and that data is used by pharmecuticals that make the vaccines.

I suppose in a nutshell its a bit like the "FLU VACCINATION" for us humans, some are protected by it, some are affected badly by it, but it does say on the bottle that it takes 10 - 14 days for it to get into our systems, only some people are effected by flu 2 - 3 days after immunisation, ask a doctor and he'll say well thats just coincidence..............Pay yer monies take yer chances I suppose.

My doctor was full of festive cheer last week, I went in feeling a bit under the weather, he gave the usual examination and his conclusion was I had got Double Pnuemonia, phew! I replied, he said its alright Chairman since it Christmas I'll only charge you for single?

[ribble]

         That's exactly the stuff I treated them with.

 

Yes Vic, i have been following this thread.

With having a bit of time on my side today i had butchers on ebay and noticed the vac so thought i would put it on the thread for anyone wanting some at a bargain price.

If you have a look at his other items for sale he is also selling an empty ps3 box, i bet a pound to a penny he races Gabby's!!!

 

 

[Guest IB]

Most of the paratyphus vaccine have inclusion of four or five most commonly identifiable strains that are likely to be infectous to racing pigeons.these are based on reports notifiable by Vetrinary's back to DEFRA and that data is used by pharmecuticals that make the vaccines.

 

Well, not according to the email from Colombovac that I published earlier on this thread (the only company with a DEFRA-authorised vaccine for use in pigeons in the UK) it's for one strain only - typhurium var copenhagen. Seems to be a lot of misinformation on this dressed-up as fact.  

 

"Crossprotection on Salmonella is limited, our product will protect against typhimurium var Copenhagen. The disease in pigeons is caused almost exclusively by S. typhimurium var. Copenhagen"

[Roland]

WQell Nissed, but at day's end, the simple reality is is Moxicillion, sorry about the spelling. But that is the answer to this terrile plight. Bayytril!!! Where are we here? If not nissed I'd have probablly not not bothered. But those in the know are saying Moxicillion  however you spell it. Sure some are on the Baytrill! But after that WHAT????!!! What! Moxicillion is what they in the know are using!! So that  IS the fact, and as for me! Well end of subject!

Nissed but spout thye truth!!!

[Guest]

What some fanciers dont know you can have salmonella.And also get pigeon chamydia what is the treatment for this.

[Roland]

But the treatment for Salmonella won't help the birds with Yeast one iota!!! Fact  That!!!So, again, may be nissed, But I will and do say that too many are treating willy Nilly for things that not only DON'T, or WON'T work, but will actually enhance the very thing they are trying to eliminate!

[Chairman]

Time to introduce another yet important point for debate, reading from material supplied on these threads and referring to many of the Vetrinary Books, Paratyphus copenhagen var is classified as an bacterial infection and not a disease nor a virus.We know from our Vets

that you cannot prescribe medication / drugs for the treatment of a Virus because of the many changes it permentates within itself. You

can however give treatment against an bacterial infection, you can also give medication to control disesases. So why does Henk De Weerdt

state on his dvd, that in his opinion it does not give good results if you inject against paratyphus using a vaccine. His recommendation is to

treat with "parastop" (does he take this line because his company do not produce a vaccine against paratyphus?).

An interesting thread again, with many different lines of thought, we have debated this subject earlier in the Autumn and for what its worth

I was introduced to the Vaccination against paratyhoid, 2 years ago by a top flyer and believe me if you heard what information he told me

as regards the UK situation, you would all be vaccinating and demand would outstrip supply of paratyhoid vaccines.

My birds have been done again in November and are all happily sitting, and so is the DOG outside the lofts.