pigeonscout

Yes Joe it is all about opinions and it is my opinion that the young bird can only race as an old bird by deception and deception breaks RPRA rule 70(a). I am also of the option that there are hard working honest fanciers out there being cheated by dishonest men who are making their young bird look like old birds with an old ring and a bit of tape, rules or no rules.

Joe only 4 members agree with you and 26 members disagree, need I say more?

Joe it is only crap because you do not have the brains to understand that it is you who is talking crap. How many people on this site agree with you Joe go back to the start and count them. LOL your a joke.

Do you have a stock loft full of winning rings like Joe or do you have winning birds?

What rule says what Joe? There is no rule to say you cannot double ring a bird and no one on this site has said it was. So why do you keep going on about it as this seems to be your only augment and no one is arguing that fact. We are talking about people like you who double ring the birds so they can cheat. Let's face it Joe you raced young birds with old birds by pretending they were old birds and that makes you a cheat.

I will put it to you so a 5 year old can understand. You cannot race young birds with old birds that breaks the rules. If you know it is a young bird and let it race with old birds you are breaking the rules. You cannot deceive people into thinking it is an old bird that breaks the rules. So tell me again Joe what rule you are not breaking.

Are you trying to say it is ok for a fancier to pull the head off your birds before putting them in the race basket because there is no rule saying he cannot? Joe you still have not answered my Question what should fanciers say in their defence when kicked out of the sport for breaking rule 70(a) If you have no defence then you have no case and are guilty of cheating.

People are breaking the rules every year, it does not make them better fanciers it makes them cheats.

To race young birds with old birds is breaking the rules. Joe 61 says by pretending it is an old bird by hiding its young bird ring you are bending this rule not breaking it. Joe 61 says no one has the right to take the tape off to prove it is a young bird and therefor breaking the rule. Joe 61 says there is no rule to say you cannot tape up a ring to hide the fact you are breaking the rule. Joe 61 calls it bending the rules because they cannot prove you are breaking them by taking the tape off. Pigeonscout says if Joe 61 believes all this then Joe 61 has lost the plot.

Joe there is no such thing as a top flyer who cheats the rules.

suspend you from what? do you race pigeons Joe?

Joe your a cheat if you hide the fact it is a young bird by taping up its ring. This has been said more than once why can you not understand that. By taping up the ring to hide the fact it is a young bird breaks rule 70(a) how many times do you need told that before it sinks in. or is that to hard for you to understand. Joe cheating is not about breaking the rules the word 'Cheating' is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, and that is what you are doing by hiding the ring so by hiding the ring you are cheating Fact. Why don't you answer the question I have asked you 4 times or do you not have any defence if kicked out for cheating in this way.

Joe show me one post where I am telling people it is ok to cheat. Show me one post where im telling people it is ok to bend the rules. If officals do not know how people cheat then they would not know what to look out for and therefor be no good at doing their job. There is not one person on this site that does not know how to cheat but it is you that is telling us it is ok to do so if you hide the fact you are cheating with a bit of tape?

Does the word loop hole sound better than cheat. Why can you not get it into your head that if it is wearing a young bird ring it is a young bird and if it is a young bird then it is breaking the rules by racing with old birds, taping up the ring is only hiding that fact because it is still a young bird FACT. Now Joe I will ask you for the 3rd time. If you are telling fanciers they are doing no wrong then you should tell them what to say in their own defence when suspended under RPRA Rule 70(a) for deceit. Would I be correct in saying you do not have to worry about what to say because you do not race pigeons and will not be doing what your are telling others to do. Why can you not take it in to your head when someone tells you it is breaking the rules and what rule it is breaking? Why can you not get it into your head that there is no loop hole in rule 70(a) and you are not bending rule 70(a) you are breaking it. So once more Joe what should fanciers say when they are suspended for breaking this rule?

Maybe your should bang you head a wee bit harder and it might sink in that if they know it is a young bird then they are also breaking the rules.

I agree with most of what you have to say and I have no problem with fanciers racing young birds with old birds if they so wish. I do have a problem with people racing young birds with old birds if it is not permitted to do so. If they want to race young birds with old birds then they should get the rule changed and not cheat that rule by double ringing an old ring to cheat the race marker into thinking it is an old bird. The very reason for double ringing is to deceive hard working fanciers who are doing their very best to be successful within the rules. The only way to be successful in this sport is good birds and hard work if you cannot win fair and square then you have won nothing no matter what your results say.

Joe anyone reading this thread can see I am the one against cheating and you are the one for it. You can call it bending the rules I call it cheating. Yes I agree, I know how some people have cheated and thanks to you I now know another way they cheat by using two rings. Knowing how to cheat by putting two rings on a bird does not make me a cheat. Putting two rings on a bird like your telling people to do to cheat people into thinking it is an old bird does. So lets get the facts right I am the one against cheating and you are the one telling people it is ok to do so because no one has the right to take the tape off the ring to prove you are cheating. I must have touched a raw nerve with my last post, was it that you that runs a stud thinks it is ok to put old rings on young birds so you can fool people. PS If you want to stick to the question (when is a young bird not a young bird) the answer is simple when it has not got a young bird ring on any of its two legs. You cannot get a young bird ring onto an old birds leg so it has to be a young bird if wearing a young bird ring.

The ring of a winning bird that has died could be put on a young bird and have the credit for winning those races before going to the stock loft. and when the direct van X stops filling his eggs his ring could be put onto a young bird and the ring number for that direct van X can go on filling eggs for 20 + years.

Joe if someone orders some young birds from your website does it come double rung so they can as you say bend the rules. Tell me Joe what one of the two ring numbers do you put on your young birds pedigree. Talking of pedigrees if it is ok to bend the rules so long as no one can prove it is it then ok to bend the pedigrees of your birds.

Joe you are telling fanciers on this site they are not breaking any rules. So tell them what they should say in their own defence when they are suspended under rule 70(a) for deceit. Should they say I did not know it was a 2009 ring under the tape. Some guy on the Internet said it was ok. Tell me Joe what should they say.

yes you are 100% right but some on here think it is ok to hide the ring so you cant see the details and that makes it ok.

Then tell me Joe with two official rings on what one of those rings are breaking the rules by not having a rubber assigned to it in the race basket?

Just report the ones that are cheating in this way and have them kicked out of the sport. You do not need a new rule as RPRA rule 70(a) covers this sort of cheating.

Joe as you said in one of your post you cant put a 2009 ring on an old bird but you can put an old ring on a young bird. If a bird is wearing a 2008 ring it could be a young bird or an old bird but if it is wearing a 2009 ring in can only be a young bird. Now if a bird is wearing both 2008 and 2009 rings given the above information it is not hard to work out that bird is a young bird. Now let me make this simple for you, if it is a young bird wearing a young bird ring then to race it with old birds is breaking the rules. The fact that the young bird ring is covered up makes no difference because that bird is still carrying an official young bird ring tape or no tape.