holmsidelofts

I have done my homework. I have just added a series of questions on the baytril thread answered by some of the top pigeon vets and they are all 100% agreed that you must treat prior if there is any signs of salmonella in the loft and amoxyclin or baytril is there preferred method of treatment. Jas.

Just to pull things back on track slightly heres some questions and answers asked to some of the top pigeon vets in the world on salmonella. After vaccinating for paramyxovirus and salmonella, my pigeons are getting sick. What is my problem? I hope you can help me with my problem......... I vaccinated my pigeons on November 25-08, for Paramyxovirus 1 and Salmonella Typhimurium Bacterin and thats when all my problems started, now it`s December 9-08. When I was vaccinating the pigeons, as I was putting the birds back in the loft and I found a 2000 male pigeon DEAD in the basket, I just thought that I might`ve hit a nerve, now a couple of day`s later I found about 4 hens and a male that could not fly up to the lower perches, the strange thing is that 2 of the hens a 98 and a 99 are both sisters of the 2000 male, now the 08 male is a son of the 98 hen and the 07 and the 08 are grand daughters of the 98 hen so I though that it was something to do with the bloodline. Now a couple of day`s later I started noticing some watering droppings green and yellow, I thought that they had PARATYPHOID ( SALMONELLA ) infection, so I started treating with ENROFLOXYN on December 4-08, now it`s December 9-08 and althought I have seen some improvemente there is not a major improvemente, as the 98 and 99 hen have lost a lot of weight and the 99 hen was eating very little as of today, and the droppings in most of the sections have gotten a lot worst. The pigeons have no lumps on the wings or the legs as I handle them all and the research that I did on the internet at the ALBERTA CLASSIC web-site mention that if it is PARATYPHOID that there should be some lumps on the wings or legs. Also I came up with the conclusion that it might be STREPTOCOCUS gallolyticus as per the research that I did it sounds that the symptoms that my pigeons have are more simular to the ones discribed on the articule that I read of the STREPTOCOCUS. Thank you very much, any information that you can share with me as to my problem would be much appreciated as I am very frustraded and I feel if I don`t resolve this problem soon I am risking losing these OLD pigeons that are very VALUABLE to me. question by: Paul Tavares answer by: Johan Van der Cruyssen Before you vaccinate against Salmonella you must be sure there is no Salmonella on your loft.You can give a blind cure against Salmonella before the vaccination. Better is to send the droppings (gathered during 5 days) to a laboratory. They will do a bacterial culture .If this test is negative you may vaccinate.When you have carriers on your loft and you vaccinate against Salmonella you can have some serious vaccination reactions.I don’t advise to give paramyxovaccination and paratyphusvaccination at the same time. Pigeons with Salmonella don’t always have lumps on the wings or legs. Symptoms of streptococcosis in pigeons are often quite similar to the symptoms of paratyphus.The best you can do is to contact a pigeon veterinarian. He can check if your pigeons are affected with streptococcosis. Streptococci bacteria are not sensible for enrofloxacin. Amoxicillin or ampicillin are first choice for treating this disease. Ask your veterinarian to check also for worms. They also can be responsible for loosing weight and for problems with the droppings. What is the preferred vaccine for paratyphus? Dead or live vaccine? Would you please advise me what would your preffered vaccine be for paratyphoid: live vaccine or dead vaccine. When using dead vaccine do the birds have to be injected 2 times? question by: Dave Hawkins answer by: Wim Boddaert Concerning the vaccination of paratyfus you can use 2 types of vaccins : - dead vaccin : f.e. Colombovac Paratyfus and here you have to vaccinate the first times 2 x with 3 weeks between the 2 injections. - live vaccin : f.e. Zoosal T ( from Germany ) and here you have to vaccinate only 1 x For both of the vaccination I prefer to give them first a treatment with an antibiotic for 10 days and then afterwards give them the vaccination. Both types are ( when they are correct used ) working good. How long does the vaccine for paratyphus/salmonella last? How long does the vaccine for paratyphus/salmonella last ,I normally use Parastop/parakil for 14 days in the water,is there any side effects from the vaccine.My son uses it on poultry but they have a short life. question by: KP Clarkson answer by: Dr Ruben Lanckriet Dear Sir, The paratyphus vaccine registrated here in Belgium (colombovac Paratyphus) lasts for 6 months. An autovaccine (vaccine made of salmonella isolated on the loft itself by the laboratories of Ghent University) lasts for one year. In both cases it is advisable to do two inoculations the first time the birds are vaccinated. This means one first inoculation (primer) and a booster one month later. The primer should be a dead vaccine (f.e. colombovac paratyphus). Kind regards jas

no probs mate. good luck with the season ahead. Jas.

yeah thats what its all about, sharing advice and gaining friends. jas.

I always use amoxycylin. thats what i get supplied by my vet with on his advice.

I would like to say one thing more on this subject and thats to say to walter that i was out of order saying he shouldnt be allowed to keep pigeons. the reason for getting involved in this thread was not to have a slanging match with a fellow fancier but to pass on my experience on pigeon health that i have. Along with genetics its a part of the sport that really interests me. Where most fanciers are look at methods to win or in the next supplement for me its pigeon health, and genetics, my book shelves contain most of the best book on pigeon health and im fortunate enough to know some top pigeon vets and im able to have these debate with the experts. All i want to do is pass on some of this knowledge to others that ask the questions. again apologies to walter for taking out of context. Jas.

thats exactly my argument the birds dont ask to catch this and we are responsible for treating them if they do. every week throughout the racing season we are exposing the birds to the disease.

Thats exactly the reason why it should always come from a vet. you are exactly right.

Careful what you say walter, at no time have i said to anyone about pumping birds with crap. in fact i have said many times that i dont condone the use of antibiotics and i would never unless they were required. results dont mean a thing, you now nothing on the subject of pigeon health and thats a fact. SHOUTING gets you nowhere either, and another thing i aint your PAL as you put it. just remember that.

There is no antibiotic that is freely available that is not registered. Its the same as anything it can be bought and brought over. there are people selling baytril on ebay, that isnt available unless it from a vet but people do sell it.

there is a flaw in your so called survey when it comes to salmonella, if you see dropped wings, swollen joints, it not that one bird that has it most of the loft will. There is no way to detect salmonella in a loft other than getting the droppings tested by a lab, they require samples from 4 different days, cultures are taken from the samples and are grown in an oven. that is the only way to test for it. taking a bird out that shows signs of possible salmonella does nothing for the rest of the birds. i can assure you that salmonella is a killer, and if it gets in your loft which im pretty sure it didnt its fatality rate is high. Im not trying to have a go at you walter but Facts are Facts. I really hope you dont get it mate really i dont it will wipe you out. In fact i personally think over the next 5 years salmonella will be the biggest killer of pigeons we have. every year there are more and more confirmed cases of this. and this comes from some top pigeon vets i know.

baytril/ amoxycylin. are to of them. remember parastop is an antibiotic and is not registered for use in the uk, Parastops active ingredient is Norfloxacin a Quinolone class antibiotic. dont abuse it. In fact i wouldnt even use it. its not that great a product in my opinion. jas

Let me get this right then so what you are saying is once a bird has a needle in it they are weak birds, so you dont vaccinate for PMV either then. You really are talking about something you know nothing about. If you get salmonella you wont have to destroy them the bacteria will do a good job of doing that for you. and whats left will be carries so you will in theory be destroying them also. For me that attitude is as bad as the people who abuse baytril. You are responsible for the livelihood of the birds you keep. Im sorry but you dont deserve to be allowed to keep birds.

Pigeon man what me and owen are trying to get across is this: 1. you CAN breed winners from non raced birds thats a fact. but it is always a hit and miss affair. think of it this way you buy a bird that is a son or daughter of a winner. you put it to stock. you then rear from it. you are now 2 generations away from the winner, the further from the winning genes you are the less chance you have of reproducing them thats FACT. just because its a son/daughter/brother or sister means nothing if it isnt carrying the genes required for it to win. 2. rearing young from winner to winner is the best chance of producing more winners. Again thats FACT. Let me tell you a little story back in 1993 i had the luck of getting a pair of untested birds that reared fantastic pigeons, winning against 20,000 pigeons, winning lots of races including 3rd national, that was 16 years ago. I bred and bred from this pair untill i bred no more. evenually i ruined this family because i had racing on my mind not keeping this familys genes going. i which i knew then what i know now about genetics. so yes you can get a good pair but they are very rare. since then i have had so many untried pairs that were supposed to be from the best that never reared anything worth talking about, the best other than from this one pair came from winner to winner.

So if your birds catch salmonella then walter what are you gonna do kill them all.

you are exactly right frank. there is way to many people giving things with no need for it. birds do perform better if they are clear of disease thats fact, but antibiotics as you said is not the way. If you do get salmonella this drug really is your life line. abuse it prior and what you find is that it will be no use to you.

Sorry mate i have to agree with blackdog on this, how you can call an important medicine like baytril as rubbish its not the drug thats rubbish its the fanciers who abuse it that are the problem. without baytril there would be millions of animals, birds etc dying every year. I do not condone using it without prescription of a vet. but there are reason to use it. vaccination for salmonella is one, if you think your birds may have it you must treat prior to the vaccine to allow it to do its job. The best advice i can give is get a good pigeon vet you can trust.

You are exactly right, A name is a name, what is certain is they all came from the 'rock dove' but through selection and breeding and giving them a name we now have strains. i cant think of any other creature where there is a breeder who gives a name to the same breed. you get lots of different types of pigeon, ie tipplers, rollers etc but all racing pigeons are pretty much identical in shape etc but are given names by the breeders. etc.

you even had me thinking for a while so i googled it, i wasnt sure what was in it myself, interesting thought. Jas

Baytril has its place in medicine, it is probably the most effective antibiotic out there when proscribed by a vet for the right reasons. the problem is fanciers abuse this and use it as a performance enhancer which is wrong. Antibiotic abuse will ruin your birds. Plus remember baytril has a shelf life as i said before. after it is exposed to the air it deteriorates and what you are then doing is giving a product that is either very weak or doesnt work this is even worse as bacteria will become resistant to it if you abuse it. Jas.

Also another point to remember is this. get the youngsters in a routine of either being handled or have a method of catching them like a basket. stress plays a big part in youngsters health. think about it this way normally we dont start basket training them until around may june time. if they are christmas youngsters they are 5 - 6 months old. they are in a routine of going out everyday then being fed, then all of a sudden us fanciers decide its time to put them in the basket so we go in the loft and start chasing them around trying to catch them, the birds get scared and panic and get stressed. I think there is only 2 ways to basket birds. 1 is to have the ability to darken the loft right down so you can go in a pick them off the perch. or a method which you can herd them into a basket without having to catch them. this is all part of training and is often over look by many, scare them now and you will never have consistent success. jas

Sorry rolland, not sure where you got your info from. this is what sedachol contains: Sedachol (500ml) Sulphurous amino acids,choline and sorbitol for liver and blood de-toxification. The most important components of Sedochol are the sulperous amino acids methionine,choline,sorbitol and chinoline. They prevent adiposis of the liver and the kidneys. Their deficiency howver leads to liver damage and poor growth. Choline provides for improved fat burning,among other things. Sorbitol engages in protein metabolism and thus promotes muscle building and optimal feather development. http://www.syndicatelofts.com/products.php?id=24 Jas

Similar for me but i like to also do the following once i start training. every week i will basket them up as if i were racing, take them to a section that they do not know then leave there there over night before liberating the following day. what you have to remember is that youngsters normally go in the basket for maybe an hour or so whilst we take them training we do that loads of times then all of a sudden they are in the basket over night, away from the loft and they get stressed, like everything you can train them this. get them used to being away from the loft before racing starts, also when i part them i always place them in a big race basket get the feeders and drinkers on there and teach them to feed and drink in the basket. simple things really but very valuable in teaching birds the routine, like any other creature they can be trained easier when they are younger, remember you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

When we also look at all the dutch birds forsale, theres plenty in blackpool this year, i have no doubt some of theses are very good birds but through selection are bred to win in a place that is completely flat with little in the way of mountains and valleys. this is what we talk about when we talk about progeny testing and breeding for certain characteristics, there environment they race in is totally different from ours and we expect to breed winners over here which have to deal with all what the uk can throw at them. im not say they dont breed winners because they will, what im saying is they werent bred and selected to flying in the uk. this is one part of genetics and the selection process. A good example of that is staf van reet. he bred bird that excelled at 120 miles he did this by only racing his birds from that distance, what he did was breed the winners to winners. if the birds didnt win at that distance multiple times they went. by doing this he created a super sprint family, it was all done from breeding from only the birds that won from that distance. It makes no sense breeding year after year from untried birds, there has to be a point where you say enough is enough. thats what all the sales week in week out is in the homing world. people getting rid of rubbish, unless its an entire clearance sale where you can buy the breeders of winners. I would never sell birds that did nothing.

Hi rob. one thing i dont understand is why people use products not designed for pigeons. what you have to remember is that you are putting chemicals into a living creature. a horse requires a far heavier dose than a pigeon does as its worked out on weight. So how can you possibly know what the measure of horse wormer is for a pigeon. Theres a good chance you can do serious damage or kill a bird if you are not careful. I personally use chevita ascapilla + I wouldnt use anything else as a wormer. One capsule kills all types of worm. no need for re treatment to kill the eggs. I have used this product for many years and as with all medication i always retest them a week later to make sure the product has worked. I have never had to re treat them after using this product. Its designed for pigeons with an accurate dosage, in a capsule so you know the bird has had the right amount of the product. Anytime you put a product in the water there is always a chance that a bird wont drink it. or they drink too little or in hot weather they drink to much. tablets or capsules are always the way to go. accurate everytime.