holmsidelofts

Hi there. I had a problem with a rat getting into my house, ended up in the walls, was a right pain to get rid of, had to call council out to deal with it in the end. they used believe it or not a chocolate white mouse in the trap, first night down caught him. after talking with the guy that came out i was told it was there preferred bait to catch them with. I was also told that a mouse can get in a hole the size of a pencil and a rat can get in a hole the size of a 50p. Rats always go for the corn in the crop first thats why they take the heads off but they will come back for the carcass. Jas

As i said earlier middle of march put them on to darkness, i normally take them off it around the 20th june or what ever weekend falls around that date. Another thing to consider is if you plan o racing right to the end and have the birds in the best wing condition for races in sept / october you have to increase the light around sept as the nights are getting longer and this again triggers the birds to moult there feathers. I have done this in the past and have never had any issues with birds not moulting correctly at the end of the year. they always catch up.

As frank said some people take the darkening process to literally, the purpose of the darkness system is to convince the birds that its still winter by lengthening night time, this causes the birds to moult there body feather but not the wing. Think of it this way, if you were to go into your loft tonight how dark would it really be, there would be moon light getting in or light from the street lighting coming in, its never completely dark. I started the darkening system in 1990 after getting to know the dutch champion steven van breman. he always told me that you should just be able to read a newspaper in the loft , what a lot of people do is try to darken the loft completely resulting in the ventilation system being effected thats the worse thing you can do. get it dark but dont go over board and not at the mercy of your ventilation. I have tried it both ways completely dark or not completely dark and it makes no difference other that health issues if the ventilation is compromised. Also there is no point darkening the youngsters before march the 20th either as until that date the nights are longer than the days come the 20th of march and the equinox comes there the days get longer and the nights get shorter thats the time to start darkening. doing it before that it has no effect on the birds moulting.

Looks excellent mate, well done.

They are not transferable between different species i've had that confirmed many times by vets and theres plenty of literature to back this theory up. they are different strains. I could write out a full page of info on this topic from the many veterinary books i have, for what ever reason they are host specific. You dont find these strains crossing over to other species, that doesnt mean they cant but theres enough evidence to back this up. Jas.

Hi cheq pied i dont know why your quote was in there i was just responding to the general thread itself. No cocci cant be transmitted been different species, cocci is found in lots of animals including pigs, birds, dog, rabbits, etc but are specific to each creature. Jas.

David parson says in his dvd prevention is better than cure say that the use of heat has little effect on controlling disease as to get the temperature up high enough you would have to burn the timber. I use one mainly to control any water spillage if the birds try to bath in there drinkers etc. Worms etc can lay dormant for years outside the loft and as ib said once the conditions become right would come alive. Jas.

Hi mate i have put up photos before from my microscope which may help. Me And Owen are putting together a dvd on microscope use and once finished will be offering it to everyone, It will explain what equipment is required, how to setup and use a microscope, how to make floatation liquid, how to identify cooci, canker worms, hexamita, common yeast infections plus more. Will keep you updated on how this is going. Jas.

Yeah i totally agree. dont spend your money on this one a lot better ones out there than this. I wouldnt buy one of them. Jas

There is multiple poultry vaccines for cocci below are just some info. Coccivac®-B Coccivac®-B Coccidosis vaccine -- Eimeria acervulina, E. mivati, E. maxima, E. tenella -- Live Oocysts, Chicken Isolates Indications For vaccination of healthy chickens at one day of age or older as an aid in preventing performance losses or mortality due to coccidiosis. Features and Benefits Controlled dose stimulates immune response Approved for administration via spray cabinet or eye spray at one day of age May be administered orally on the feed to chickens one to three days of age Vaccine oocysts are highly sensitive to anticoccidial drugs Early vaccination stimulates immunity without adverse impact on flock performance Rigorous Quality Control assures that Coccivac-B is free of contaminants such as Salmonella spp. No additional information available Coccivac®-D Coccivac®-D Coccidiosis vaccine -- live oocysts Indications For vaccination of healthy breeders and layers as an aid in preventing coccidiosis. No additional information available Paracox®-5 Paracox®-5 Coccidiosis vaccine -- live oocysts Indications For the active immunization of chickens to reduce infection and clinical signs caused by E. acervulina, E. maxima, E. mitis, and E. tenella. Features and Benefits Marketplace Advantages: Gives producers flexibility to offer "drug free" birds Differentiates birds from standard "feed-additive" broiler Improves consumer friendly image of poultrymeat Allows premium pricing to "green" markets Eliminates residue concerns for consumers Therapeutic Superiority Protects against all Eimeria spp. important to broilers Birds remain protected for entire broiler cycle after a single administration Reduces risk of late outbreaks Eliminates undesirable side effects of coccidiostats Eliminates risk of toxicity in non-target species Attenuated strains remain apathogenic and sensitive after successive recycling on broiler farm Improves protection of birds on cereal supplementation programs No need for complicated drug rotation programs Production Efficiencies Removal of coccidiostat allows for greater nutrient density in feed Elimination of anti-coccidial rations results in fewer ration types necessary at feed mill Reduces time spent flushing feed mill lines to clear coccidiostat residues Reduces space requirements for coccidiostat storage No withdrawal period means greater flexibility in planning and inventory of grower and finisher rations Elimination of residue and regulatory worries associated with use of coccidiostats There really isnt a need for one in racing pigeons as cocci is easily controlled with good hygiene and a dry loft. We have fantastic products like baycox which irradiates cocci pretty well. jas. What you have to also remember is that cocci in pigeons cant be transmitted to poultry and vice versa as they are host specific, i have asked this question multiple times to the pigeon vets i know as i have chickens next to me and im told that it cant be passed on. it also says in Dr zsolt talabers book vets tips for fanciers the same. So there would be no point in trying a poultry vaccine because of that reason. The cocci that infect pigeons are mainly these three strains, Eimeria Labbeana, E.columbarum and E.columbae. In chickens its mainly the following strains, Eimeria acervulina, E. mivati, E. maxima, E. tenella

No he doesnt mate which is quite strange. but he is one of the vets who have been on the fence so to speak about if you should vaccinate or not, I have vaccinated for 3 years straight now and never had one bird show any illness to the vaccine . but its important that you vaccinate a second time within 4 weeks of the first and thats with all dead vaccines including PMV but fanciers aint always told that and that i feel is one of the reasons you get varied results from vaccinations and that includes PMV. Quite interesting now that the WHU have decided to make it non compulsory to vaccinate old birds against PMV you only need to vaccinate youngster. It will be interesting to see if theres a rise in PMV over the next few years as we have seen a rise already before this came in. I will continue to vaccinate for PMV as i feel for the cost of £20 its not worth the risk, I had PMV in the 80s and i wouldnt want it again. Jas.

And i agree with you on that, what i disagree with is that although the vaccine is not 100% guaranteed to stop salmonella the benefits out way the negatives. A quote from Dr Wim Peters on the subject: pigeons not infected already should not react badly from vaccination, from this question we know that the fancier vaccinates his pigeons every year, so we can suppose that a loft has a good general state of health. in such circumstances the disadvantages of vaccination against salmonella are minimal and the advantages far exceed the disadvantages. so after vaccination the pigeons condition should improve greatly and their results also better. Page 271 of Dr Zolts Talaber's book vets tips for fanciers.

I do stand corrected on that and i apologise for that comment, but i still disagree with what you are saying, but you are entitled to your opinion the same as i am and we have to respect each others opinions and let others make up there mind on this subject.

If a bird has salmonella in the joints of the wings or legs baytril will get rid of the salmonella but it wont repair the damage done to the joints, they will always be swollen and your chances of that bird competing again is slim.

I never said you were talking crap, i said you have an opinion the same as i have one, i said you are no professional expert like i am not all im saying is its up to people to make up there minds on this subject, there is 2 schools of thought on the treatment before vaccine. one is to get the birds tested, the other is to treat blind before vaccine they dont all say treat before vaccinating there is no point in treating for something you havent got. my advice would always be get them properly tested first by a proper lab that can tell you for certain before hand if you have it, theres to much blind treatment going on thats not required and is not doing the bird any good. if you birds dont have salmonella then you dont have to treat before vaccination and thats fact.

It depends also in what form the bird gets it. if the bird has the disease in the brain which gives the twisted neck syndrome similar to PMV then 90% of of these birds end up dead. If the birds get it in the leg or wing joints they are finished even if treated as the joints are irreparable. As for de weerd his only interest in salmonella is to sell parastop to people he isnt gonna give advice to vaccinate as he would loose hundreds of thousands on a product that most people on here say is poor anyway. I cant comment on parastop as ive never used it and will never use it, i will continue as others like owen have said and will follow the advice of the experts. Im no expert and dont pretend to be. I have a big interest in pigeon health and thats it. You to pigeonscout are no expert either all we can do is give advice based upon what we know and its up to others to make up there mind to what they want to do.

Comes straight from some of the top pigeon vets in the country, im not making this up. open up any book on pigeon health and its there in black and white

If you dont give it fatality is 90 to 100% in most birds. If you vaccinate you lower the fatality rate as the birds have a lot of immunity to it from the vaccine. thats reason why you do it. and the follow up paper you talk about was done a few years after the first one not in recent year as you put it. have a look on the site this came from and you will see that. The advances in science moves so quickly that anything older than a few years is irrelevant, Look at all the data and info from modern day vets tell you a different story. if your birds get paratyphoid properly you wont get chance to treat them, birds die very quickly from it within days of catching it. Ask the numerous fanciers on here that have been devastated by it. vaccine lows that rate and gives the bird a fighting chance.

Why do people still quote the above that came from a study done 20 years ago and is irrelevant now so do everyone a favour and stop quoting it The difference between vaccinating and not means if you dont and you catch salmonella fatality is very high, birds that are vaccinated can still catch it but wont get it anywhere near as bad and with little in the way of fatalities, you have to way up whats more important loosing most of your loft or not. for the cost of doing it is cheaper than replacing all you dead stock, thats for sure.

Couldnt have said it better mate. just because you could doesnt mean you should. Jas.

looking good graham, some really nice youngsters there. good luck with them this year jas

Sorry mate you dont get an immunity to worms they are parasitic animals and nothing will stop them once they have picked up that egg, the only thing that will is treatment. if i was to test your droppings now theres probably a good chance you have worms if you havent treated for a long time. thats an open offer if you want to send me some droppings to test your theory. You are right regarding the exposure to cocci builds immunity thats why you must not treat in the off season. I really believe you need to expose youngsters to the likes of cocci and canker so they can get that immunity but never worms. worms are dangerous and can cause lots of damage internally to a bird. what you have to remember with worms is there is a 4 week cycle all they need is to pick up one egg for the process to start again. every week you put them in the basket with other birds you are exposing them to re infection. once racing starts your chances of going all season without re infection is low. jas.

It looks that way dwh. I look at it from this perspective. it takes a lot of abuse to do serious damage to the immune system. how many times in our life time have we taken antibiotics, hundreds of times. the life expectancy of humans isnt decreasing infact we are living longer all thanks to these things we call antibiotics and viral vaccines. I dont condone abuse of antibiotics but they have a valuable place in keeping us and our birds alive when they need them. but they must be prescribed by a qualified vet in my opinion.

regardless of the use of antibiotics all virus's and bacteria will do what ever it can to survive if that means mutating then thats what happens. to say all the virus's and bacteria where on the plant before us isnt correct. new virus's and bacteria are being found year in year out. most of them are not mutations of other virus's but new ones. you are correct about the vaccine side of things. to say birds dont have healthy immune systems today is also wrong, some birds are prone more to disease than others and yes that could be to do with the way they are treated but on the whole i would say there are birds now with better immune systems than there where in the sixties. Its not all about the medication that makes an immune system good but also what they are fed and the availability of supplements like vitamins, minerals, pro and pre biotics etc these all also strengthen the immune system to along with all the vaccines available to us.

You could look at it from this point of view as well ib. No one treated so all the birds had similar levels of disease. all the common disease were around then cocci, canker, worms, respiratory disease etc so everyone was competing on the same level, sorry but you cant compare races back then to know, the standard today is much higher than in the 60' 70's they would never be able to compete with us today. going back to the disease side if you want to compete with the best today birds have to be 100% healthy and free of disease otherwise you wont compete week in week out with the top fanciers who do treat. Also to say there wasnt anything around then is incorrect, people just couldnt identify or treat for them, common diseases have always been there.