Just to point out to joe and to bobibobiobb, i never started this crap , joes first time was post no 238, the again on 240 , then on 250 , when it clearly has bu@@er all to do with him or you ,so who was lossing the debate joe , its only when you brought up that old chestnut again that got me angry,the thread is about old ring new ring is it not, and clearly you were losing that by a long way