i understand your view and totally respect it Mick, but mine is slightly diffrent .we do value our young birds , many of us breed too many (cannon fodder as you say) because of the circumstances they have to fly under in this day and age. with many small organisations flying ,clashing,and the ever present B.O.P. Losses are part and parcel , the E.T.S. ring manufacturers are getting in the neck because if the cost of rings were cheaper (and many believe they could/should be) it would make the blow less of an impact financially and emotionaly.