When the hell is there going to be defined rules for the ets ect issued. We go around in bloody circles when it comes to ets systems and the correct way to time in. The simple way that i see it is, imagine you have a finish line at your loft. The pigeon has to cross that finish line, irrelevant if it can get back out into the open or not. The finish line is defined as the confines of your loft, this doesnt mean that its trapped and unable to go back out or not. Pads placed directly under landing boards are illegal. Pads inside sputnicks where the pigeon jumps down onto, or walks onto the pad is legal. Stall traps where the pigeon walks through or drops down in the tunnel are legal. Open doors with pad inside the loft are legal. Just hope the unions can come together and make defined rules regarding these systems, or we will still be going around in circles in many years to come. phew........... thats better ;D ;D ;D hope this helps a little alex.