JOHNSEE Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 JOHNSEENo mate I wouldn't breed from birds like that and they both went the way of all my rejects. During their stay with me one of them would go to another guys loft about 2 miles from here. The guy concerned got very upset with me because he thought I should confine the bird and not let it bother him. I have a policy of not breeding from birds that will not race properly so the bird had to go. I take my lead from the race horse people. All the foals are sired to by winning fathers and most of the mares are either winners themselves or from winning fathers. I know that even that does not guarantee that all the progeny will be winners but I reckon that I breed far more winners than if I did things any other way. Owen,you never bred from either of these birds so we will never know if their offspring could have been any good,point of interest however is that even with your system you had rejects.As I stated earlier eyesign is only part of the make-up of a good pigeon and by all means not the only thing that one should judge a pigeon on and I would urge fanciers to remember that,I would again say look at the pictures on the front pages of the B.H.W. the pages where various organisations are showing their winners,winners from all distances you wont find a weakness in any of their eyes,but by any means it is not a shortcut but it is important in breeding that elusive champion.......Owen really enjoyed the chat...Happy New-Year to you and all your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 GreenlandsI am sure that winners can be bred from pigeons that have never raced. I would not attempt it myself because I would rather breed the way I have described. HotrodI have never studied National Hunt Horses just thoroughbreds but I can see how non racers could be great sires. I still think there is an element of risk in choosing to breed from a non winning horse or bird. I think that thoroughbred breeders want to try to get as close to single factor breeding as possible which is a different approach. They want to produce strains or families of horses that specialise in certain distances to the exclusion of any other type of racing. I am trying to improve the overall performances of my birds and although it is a slow progress things are getting better all the time. OK I produce duffers but my results are improving so I will stick with what I know has worked for me. I test any cock that has qualified to be transferred to stock by pairing him to several hens to see if he can sire something any good. I have two 2 year old cocks going through that process right now. They have both done a lot of winning and should do well but they will have to show me something if they want to stay.I think the biggest problem with my way of breeding is that you can turn up unexpected problems. Single factor breeding in the livestock industry has produced cattle with weaknesses in their legs and feet and animals that are very aggressive. There has been problems with chicken when single factor breeding has been used to produce both layers and meat chicken. In pigeons there can be problems with aggression and there is a risk of producing nervous birds mainly but it is a method that I have decided to use to breed my racers. I am sure that in the long run single factor breeding will produce greatly more winners than any other way of breeding. The biggest problem I have is to select birds to specialise in certain distances. Producing sprinters is the easiest and producing distance birds is really difficult. David Shumaker (I hope I spelled that right) of Sacramento USA is attempting to do just that. He is using inbreeding techniques to achieve his goal whereas I always crossbreed. By using this method of single factor breeding I have a team of celibate cocks that are very successful at sprinting and I often get several birds dropping together to win.If my system works as it should most of my birds should produce winners when they are crossed with other decent birds in other people's lofts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 http://www.drjohnlamberton.com/vlog3.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 http://www.dreyerloft.com/resources/Eyesign_101.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 http://bunagloft.pigeonbreeders.org/Articles/EYESIGNISJUSTAN.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Sammythanks for the information and I have done you the courtesy of looking at it.As far as I am concerned gazing into a pigeon's eye with a magnifying glass is a waste of time and having tried it out I am not prepared to bother with it again.My view is that it is the genetic make up of a pigeon coupled with skilled management that creates winning pigeons. If I were to study my pigeons' eyes I would only be prepared to do it after the racing was finished and the results were known. I reckon that most of those who claim to study eyesign are looking for short cuts and are probably wasting good pigeons while they are about it. I have had people who claim to know how to evaluate pigeons by their eyes look at my racing cocks. By doing this I admit to being unfair because all the cocks have been in the frame at some time. If I had any doubts about eyesign before I was sure that it was a waste of time after the exercise. These people could not pick the best birds at all. If anyone would like to prove a point I have around 30 cocks sitting in my loft which I will make available to see what they make of them as far as eyesign is concerned but I am sure that whatever expert you use will not be able to get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 OWEN ,Sorry but i never put them links up for you i put them up for the man that started this thread and other people that ARE interested in you have made your point on here on numerous occasions about eye sign so why dont you start a thread of your own to put your points across instead os STEALING/TAKING over someone elses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just ask me Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 i agree with owen on this one have had guys vist here to tell me that certain cocks were better than the ones that had won for me even after i tell them that certain cocks had a lot more results they still disagree i could not understand that at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 sammyI didn't know that people actually owned posts. In any case I am sorry to say this but if and when I see crap I will always challenge it. I wasted years on some of the so called theories which included eyesign and if I can put an alternative point of view to avoid others doing the same, I will. If this sport is going to have a chance of survival we really must stop kidding ourselves about some of the rubbish that will slow and mislead new starters and novices so they need to see as many points of view as possible. I don't want to be bad mannered or offensive but I will always try to be straight forward and try to be as helpful as I can. My honest opinion is that the whole subject of eyesign is misleading and a waste of time and I hope I have convinced others to that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg50 Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 http://www.drjohnlamberton.com/vlog3.htmRead the first paragraph on Eye Evalueation on this video and you have your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullcock Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 We have got some high performing birds in my loft and they have "good eyesign" but I also have birds that have not bred or won with "better eyesign" according to the theory.I like a good clear healthy eye it looks like their is a light inside it, I do look at the eyesign, but performance is the only real way to find them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammy Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 sammyI didn't know that people actually owned posts. In any case I am sorry to say this but if and when I see crap I will always challenge it. I wasted years on some of the so called theories which included eyesign and if I can put an alternative point of view to avoid others doing the same, I will. If this sport is going to have a chance of survival we really must stop kidding ourselves about some of the rubbish that will slow and mislead new starters and novices so they need to see as many points of view as possible. I don't want to be bad mannered or offensive but I will always try to be straight forward and try to be as helpful as I can. My honest opinion is that the whole subject of eyesign is misleading and a waste of time and I hope I have convinced others to that fact. yir talking one load of garbage man not once have i seen anything on here from you apart from negativity ok yi spent years yourself studying eye sign only to find yi couldnt understand it your fault no one elses and now yir taking every oppertunity to knock every theory that comes on here as RUBBISH your words not mine except your own theory of which posts have been put on here to differ from you and not once have i seen one post from you to challenge them other wise ,as others have said on here before everyone is entitled to their opinion on theories racing pigeons is full of theories which makes it all the more worthwhile in keeping them as far as i am concerned we are all willing to learn and dont know it all well as much as you do ,so all the best to you for 2014 and will not be posting anymore towards this thread :emoticon-0167-beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Owen Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Sammyno hard feelings. I hope you have the best season ever in 2014.regardsOwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paulrstokes Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Geoff Cooper?? I saw the same on one of his DVDs, but when I saw his birds for sale on Pipa, i found it strange all his birds had the same characteristics of the eye, and I know nothing of the theory Yes Mate I agree that his birds eyes are similar, however he puts no faith in the eye at all. I think it is a case of each to their own. I will not waste my time on it, but if someone thinks it makes their stock selection better who am I to argue?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 as I have stated earlier in posts in another part of the forum eyesign is a tool pure and simple and if used it should be used to help as a deciding factor in selection and NOT just as the selection tool its self ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_bulger Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 as it a theory whats the thoghts on this 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delboy Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Cant really see it well enough to judge it Jimmy. I can only see a good racing sign but need it closer to really evaluate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chad3646 Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 sammyI didn't know that people actually owned posts. In any case I am sorry to say this but if and when I see crap I will always challenge it. I wasted years on some of the so called theories which included eyesign and if I can put an alternative point of view to avoid others doing the same, I will. If this sport is going to have a chance of survival we really must stop kidding ourselves about some of the rubbish that will slow and mislead new starters and novices so they need to see as many points of view as possible. I don't want to be bad mannered or offensive but I will always try to be straight forward and try to be as helpful as I can. My honest opinion is that the whole subject of eyesign is misleading and a waste of time and I hope I have convinced others to that fact. well said owen, it seems like some people dont like an honest opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We man Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Eye sign do you think it's of use?Cheers,Paul FairweatherPaul,the only EYE that I want to see is the eye under its tail when its dropping through the bob wires,its called the *anus" eye., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blood red Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Paul,the only EYE that I want to see is the eye under its tail when its dropping through the bob wires,its called the *anus" eye.,I have handled some of the best pigeons in the world eyesign is a load of rubbish.The throat theory is 100% true. john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We man Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I have handled some of the best pigeons in the world eyesign is a load of rubbish.The throat theory is 100% true. johnThanks John,was told this by a top Scottish fancier regarding throat myself,and would like to know more about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Thanks John,was told this by a top Scottish fancier regarding throat myself,and would like to know more about it. jake you and I old to see down their throat. call in some tine you are passing and I have something to help you in your quest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We man Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 jake you and I old to see down their throat. call in some tine you are passing and I have something to help you in your quest.Will do Robert and thanks for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demolition man Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 as it a theory whats the thoghts on this 1 Out of interest is the pigeon inbred? in my opinion the eye is very strong and would have guess of of the bird bing from birds that would fly 500-600 mls Now its time to be shot by Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbilly 1 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 thares only 12 old bird club races and normaly 6 young bird races and prob 6 national races and milions of so caled stok lofts throw out the *expletive removed*rey but hers the thing its the same old faces turn them out at club fed and national raceing year in year out with them all with thare owen theares and eye sign my owen take on it is i breed to eye sign only when thay have been tested in the basket first and i breed a winer every year the only prob with eye sign is it can be man made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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