Probiotic

[Guest geordiejen]

can anyone recomend a good probiotic after a course of antibiotics?does natural yogurt also help the good bacteria to return?

[peter2010]

Carluke sell one its a powder form and only costs a fiver and I've seen a difference with using it . It's one level teaspoon to a gallon of water atb

[Guest geordiejen]

im going down to get feed on sunday mate i will see if they have it.

[peter2010]

If its Carluke your going to he's defo got it as.they were plenty on Wednesday night

[Guest Owen]

The best probiotic is dried droppings from your own loft. You should not be using antibiotics at all because it will create problems for the rest of us in the long run. And it is yeast infections that often follows antibiotic treatments and probiotics do not help with yeast. If as often happens you do get a bad yeast infection it will result in losses and the birds are unlikely to do much as racers.

[Guest geordiejen]

owen i was very reluctant to use antibiotics and havent used them in 2 years.however advice from the vet is to use antibiotics.if antibiotics are used in the proper manner and prescribed by a vet then i see no harm in it.

[Guest Owen]

georgyjen

the point you made sounds quite convincing and it is the sort of thing that a Vet would say. As far as I am concerned there is only one time that antibiotics could be justified, and that is after a lab test has identified Paratyphoid present in a team of birds. My reason for saying this is because if Paratyphoid is found there must be a sensitivity test to work out which antibiotic is suitable to kill the infection. Paratyphoid is one of the bacterial diseases that can vary which means that the treatment has to be targeted properly for it to work. Most of the nasty health challenges we face these days are not bacterial but viral which means that no amount of antibiotics will effect a cure. Sometimes the symptoms can be relieved by the use of antibiotics but the only way to protect our birds is by the use of vaccines. Unfortunately pigeons just like all birds have a crop which is an ideal environment for yeast infections. The use of antibiotics are not a targeted treatment and all bacteria can get killed, good and bad alike. After the treatment the bird has to regenerate the good bacteria so that it's body can be brought into balance again and probiotics will help this process. However, yeast can become a problem at that stage and can cause major problems unless you are aware of the risks and can counteract the effects of it quickly and efficiently. Many birds that fail to achieve top form have become subject to yeast infections and what started off as a genuine attempt to improve the pigeons health gives you another set of problems. Finally, very few Vets will ask you to have your birds tested after they have prescribed at treatment and fail to pick up problems that are still present in the birds at a later date. The two classic cases are hair worm which can and often does survive just one treatment and the use of antibiotics which can leave your birds with other health challenges such as yeast build up. I my opinion there are very few Vets that understand the basics of what is needed when they are asked to treat pigeons so we have to try to find these things out for ourselves so that we can offer the Vet concerned some form of guidance.

[Guest geordiejen]

very good point owen and i do realise the difficulties in using antibiotics and thats why i stopped altogether a long time ago.this was mentioned to the vet who then said if they are being used correctly there shouldnt be a problem.yes the point you made of the vet not pinpointing the actual bacteria infection is another true comment.thats why a broad spectrum antibiotic was advised on.i have seen the destruction flock treating with the likes of baytril can cause.birds which arent infected spewing up seed and such.ive put the flock on adnosan from chevita and there seems to be no adverse effects yet.if you know of any good remedy to treat the yeast infection which will by now be rising i would appreciate it?

[Guest Owen]

The Vets will usually offer you Nystatin or some other statin based medicine to deal with yeast infections. I have found these medicines to be unsuitable for pigeons. The best way to control yeast is by using fresh chopped garlic in the water fresh every day as a preventative and cure for mild infections. I place it into my water container about 12 hours before I want to use it for the birds. Lugols iodine or if you go to the Chemist ask for Aqueous iodine is the best cure I know. If you decide to use the iodine be aware that you only need very small dilutions because it is very powerful stuff. 2ml per litre is enough. Iodine is also very handy to clean up pretty much any bacterial contaminations such as dirty nest boxes or contaminated food and drink containers. It is the base ingredient of many disinfectants including Jeyes Fluid. I use an iodine based disinfectant designed to control foot and mouth disease here which is very effective and is very economical to use. Finally, I never place anything in the drinking water on the day I basket for races because I need the birds to drink as much as possible. Perhaps it is worth me pointing out that if you use garlic it is important that you use it with regularity because as a natural ingredient it more effective when you include it as part of your routine.

[soupie]

The best probiotic is dried droppings from your own loft. You should not be using antibiotics at all because it will create problems for the rest of us in the long run. And it is yeast infections that often follows antibiotic treatments and probiotics do not help with yeast. If as often happens you do get a bad yeast infection it will result in losses and the birds are unlikely to do much as racers.

 

Hi owen, regarding the droppings , do you actually mean using a deep litter type system or do you mean letting some the pigeons food get dirty so to speak.

 

thanks for your posts, your always very informative

 

soupie

[walterboswell59]

very good point owen and i do realise the difficulties in using antibiotics and thats why i stopped altogether a long time ago.this was mentioned to the vet who then said if they are being used correctly there shouldnt be a problem.yes the point you made of the vet not pinpointing the actual bacteria infection is another true comment.thats why a broad spectrum antibiotic was advised on.i have seen the destruction flock treating with the likes of baytril can cause.birds which arent infected spewing up seed and such.ive put the flock on adnosan from chevita and there seems to be no adverse effects yet.if you know of any good remedy to treat the yeast infection which will by now be rising i would appreciate it?

potassium permanganate and natural yogurt both work well and cost pennies women used yougurt to cure yeast and thrush infections before nystan came on the market potassium was used as anti fungal mouth wash and to kill fungal infections on soldiers feet and wounds during the first world war m8

[Lennut Tar]

can anyone recomend a good probiotic after a course of antibiotics?does natural yogurt also help the good bacteria to return?

 

Not all that big on probiotics, I have them on deep litter & I'm happy with that. One thing thou, I've seen it advertized on tv etc here, that one small capsule (human dose) has 22 times more good bugs in them than a tub of yogurt "Interesting" I think.

Enjoy.

[Guest IB]

For years I used live natural yogurt for humans, spooned onto their feed, fed fresh on three consecutive days, once a month. The last 6/7 years I’ve had more pigeons and it’s more convenient to use Flightpath, on their food, just one day a month. I buy a year’s supply, working out at £1 per week (for 50 birds).

 

IMO it is a big mistake to think of the micro-organisms in a probiotic as just bacteria that occur only in the gut, just involved in digestion. They include yeasts etc. and are found in all the mucous linings of every part of the animal, inside and out - gazillions of different types of micro-organisms which the body knows are there, but does not kill. The body ‘tolerates’ these micro-organisms because it uses them in different ways to help keep itself alive & healthy, e.g to better digest food, create vitamins, or to control and eradicate micro-organisms harmful to itself. They are a ready source of natural antibiotics for the body which will either inhibit further growth of certain other micro-organisms - or kill them altogether. For example certain strains of Lactobacteria keep the levels of trichomonads (the canker-causing agent) in check, by secreting a substance that creates an environment in which trich cannot flourish. There are lactobacteria in the pigeon’s crop, and on the linings of its throat & nasal passages.

 

The gut micro-organism ‘colony’ is not static. It changes over time. Not everything that goes in stays there, nor do they stay in the same place or for the same length of time. Humans sh** their own weight in gut micro-organisms each year. There’s a lot more where they came from, as I said gazillions.

 

So when you use a probiotic, you are really using modern biological warfare. These micro-organisms are considered by the human medical & veterinarian professions alike to be part of the body’s immune system, and giving a probiotic is known to stimulate the immune system - but how it does that isn’t fully understood. The important thing is that it does - and the micro-organisms don’t even need to be living to do this.

[greenlands]

http://www.djhawkins.co.uk/hello.htm

 

 

:animatedpigeons:

[eastcoaster]

http://www.djhawkins.co.uk/hello.htm

 

 

:animatedpigeons:

I use primelac and so does the brother who has a hell of a lot more years in this game than me and who is a gamekeeper so has seen and heard of most thing s for game and racing pigeons and we both think this stuff is good in varied ways of use , nobody can say it cures any ills but without doubt it helps the pigeon through a lot of ailments helping reduce the stress and gives help fighting ailments .

We think it work's so are happy to use it but each to their own.

[greenlands]

I use primelac and so does the brother who has a hell of a lot more years in this game than me and who is a gamekeeper so has seen and heard of most thing s for game and racing pigeons and we both think this stuff is good in varied ways of use , nobody can say it cures any ills but without doubt it helps the pigeon through a lot of ailments helping reduce the stress and gives help fighting ailments .

We think it work's so are happy to use it but each to their own.

For the amount you get it's cheap.

[eastcoaster]

For the amount you get it's cheap.

£39 for 33oz and it last me just over 12 months. Although I don,t use every day.

[Lennut Tar]

For years I used live natural yogurt for humans, spooned onto their feed, fed fresh on three consecutive days, once a month. The last 6/7 years I’ve had more pigeons and it’s more convenient to use Flightpath, on their food, just one day a month. I buy a year’s supply, working out at £1 per week (for 50 birds).

 

IMO it is a big mistake to think of the micro-organisms in a probiotic as just bacteria that occur only in the gut, just involved in digestion. They include yeasts etc. and are found in all the mucous linings of every part of the animal, inside and out - gazillions of different types of micro-organisms which the body knows are there, but does not kill. The body ‘tolerates’ these micro-organisms because it uses them in different ways to help keep itself alive & healthy, e.g to better digest food, create vitamins, or to control and eradicate micro-organisms harmful to itself. They are a ready source of natural antibiotics for the body which will either inhibit further growth of certain other micro-organisms - or kill them altogether. For example certain strains of Lactobacteria keep the levels of trichomonads (the canker-causing agent) in check, by secreting a substance that creates an environment in which trich cannot flourish. There are lactobacteria in the pigeon’s crop, and on the linings of its throat & nasal passages.

 

The gut micro-organism ‘colony’ is not static. It changes over time. Not everything that goes in stays there, nor do they stay in the same place or for the same length of time. Humans sh** their own weight in gut micro-organisms each year. There’s a lot more where they came from, as I said gazillions.

 

So when you use a probiotic, you are really using modern biological warfare. These micro-organisms are considered by the human medical & veterinarian professions alike to be part of the body’s immune system, and giving a probiotic is known to stimulate the immune system - but how it does that isn’t fully understood. The important thing is that it does - and the micro-organisms don’t even need to be living to do this.

 

Interesting read IB. Thou !!!!!!! I have a concern in relation to living organisms versus the dead ones etc. For what I have read, living ones are much preffered over the dead so to speak, thou I do not understand why this is so. Also for human use in capsule form, I can buy ones with 2 billion "Good bugs" in them or up to 100 billion. In relation to the pigeons they talk in millions for some reason in the few probiotics that I have seen for sale here. All very confusing at least to me unfortunately.

Enjoy.

[Guest IB]

Interesting read IB. Thou !!!!!!! I have a concern in relation to living organisms versus the dead ones etc. For what I have read, living ones are much preffered over the dead so to speak, thou I do not understand why this is so. Also for human use in capsule form, I can buy ones with 2 billion "Good bugs" in them or up to 100 billion. In relation to the pigeons they talk in millions for some reason in the few probiotics that I have seen for sale here. All very confusing at least to me unfortunately.

Enjoy.

 

Sorry, I probably confused issues in my last bit when I talked about the immune system. You are right, for a probiotic Living organisms are preferred over Dead ones and it's a big selling point in their advertising: "X million of bacteria in our product are known to survive the extreme acid conditions of the stomach and reach the intestine" - where they are also known to stimulate the immune system.

 

But Dead micro-organisms are also known to stimulate the immune system- the classic example is a vaccine, where over here at least, dead vaccines are preferred to live ones, an example being our Government-authorised paramyxo vaccine, we've a choice of only two, and both of those are dead vaccines.

 

Agree about the numbers. The book I have on it is for veterinarians and health service practitioners but gives gut numbers for humans only, and these are given in "10 to power 8" formats. I assume that is because more human gut health studies have been done than with animals, so more is known about humans, and as the numbers of micro-organisms passed has been calculated by weight, IMO the probiotics numbers difference between us and pigeons is because humans are much bigger, heavier and more complex than pigeons.

[Lennut Tar]

Sorry, I probably confused issues in my last bit when I talked about the immune system. You are right, for a probiotic Living organisms are preferred over Dead ones and it's a big selling point in their advertising: "X million of bacteria in our product are known to survive the extreme acid conditions of the stomach and reach the intestine" - where they are also known to stimulate the immune system.

 

But Dead micro-organisms are also known to stimulate the immune system- the classic example is a vaccine, where over here at least, dead vaccines are preferred to live ones, an example being our Government-authorised paramyxo vaccine, we've a choice of only two, and both of those are dead vaccines.

 

Thanks IB, I can understand the size differance etc that's well within my brain capability. Unfortunately !!!!!!! that's where it all stops & the rest is way above my head, "Sadly".

Enjoy.

[JohnQuinn]

For a variety of reasons i've been prescribed Anti Biotics more than most since my teenage years. Once quite recently when i had finished a course of them i asked the Doc for advice on a good Probiotic, ( after reading so much about them in our sport) he said there was no such thing!!!

 

Regardless of that remark i decided to have a slice of the PrimoLac in the link above, popped a cheque in the post last night so will see if it makes any odds or not when it arrives.

[greenlands]

There's enough in the tub to last you four or five years John,I halve it with a mate.

[eastcoaster]

For a variety of reasons i've been prescribed Anti Biotics more than most since my teenage years. Once quite recently when i had finished a course of them i asked the Doc for advice on a good Probiotic, ( after reading so much about them in our sport) he said there was no such thing!!!

 

Regardless of that remark i decided to have a slice of the PrimoLac in the link above, popped a cheque in the post last night so will see if it makes any odds or not when it arrives.

Hi John

This stuff is no wonder cure for any ailments but what we feel is it helps the birds get over any ailments plus if you find your birds have watery droppings when feeding young make primalac a little stronger than normal and you will see the diferance, but as they say each to their own.

[JohnQuinn]

There's enough in the tub to last you four or five years John,I halve it with a mate.

Do you see that Higgy

 

 

[JohnQuinn]

Hi John

This stuff is no wonder cure for any ailments but what we feel is it helps the birds get over any ailments plus if you find your birds have watery droppings when feeding young make primalac a little stronger than normal and you will see the diferance, but as they say each to their own.

 

My Da had a wee saying "well for all the good it'll do them it won't do any harm". I'm dead against antibiotics so anything that MIGHT help is worth a go, at the money its no exactly skinning me either. Cheers, John.