Guest snowy2011 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 I have been looking at the birds at the house of Arden by Steve and Lesley wright but there are so many to choose from I don't know where to look all of them are fantastic, do you by two off the same bird or two different ones two put together, I'm confused.com just wondering if there is anyone that could help me.And I'd just like to say thank you to all the people that replied to my question about the products.Never in my life have I ever come across a sport that is so hard to crack even the basics
Wiley Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Whenever I've approached a fancier to buy birds, after researching the mans results, I've asked him to match me a pair or however many I was looking to buy, as he will know his lines better then anyone. These days I'd only ever buy of a racing man with backed up results. I'd only ever want his best, and when spending your hard earned that's what you should expect your getting but it isn't always the case. A fancier friend of ours who no longer races but was extremely successful would buy pigeons to make sure he got the best he said if they hadn't performed after 2 years he would bring the birds back and would be collecting his money. I wish I had his front
Guest snowy2011 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Yes I see what your saying that's why I have looked at these birds because they have been raced he's not long stopped racing so need to get in quick, I was going to go to Louella but like you say he does not race just breeds
just ask me Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 i know this wont help you at all but like wiley says try to buy as close to the top pigeons as possible then cross your fingers a lot of luck involved look at the pau international thread the story of lucky
Wiley Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Yes I see what your saying that's why I have looked at these birds because they have been raced he's not long stopped racing so need to get in quick, I was going to go to Louella but like you say he does not race just breeds Never realised house of aarden raced any idea of there results?
Guest snowy2011 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Well I was told that he gave up last years and was just sticking to breaking so I wouldn't know this is my second year in the sport so I don't know a lot but I'm looking for some gd jan ardens and that is where I have been told to go so I can't help you on that one sory. If anyone else has got a place to go to and would let me know that would be gd I was also looking at the lionhearted family looked it up and there was a discussion on here about them and I have changed my mind now ha amazing glad I checked it up and found out all about them.
Wiley Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Got a feeling they haven't raced since 2002 snowy
Guest snowy2011 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Right ok so does this make them not worth buying off now then I'm so confused
Wiley Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Do some research lad, they buy plenty of top winning birds, and people are winning with them, the rest is up to u
Rooster J. Cogburn Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Seeing yer looking at the house of Aarden doos is it long distance lines you are after? You've maybe missed the boat for this suggestion but a number of your top distance fanciers locally will be racing their best birds to the nest at the minute with the "Classics" coming up in the next four weeks.Many of the eggs under these birds that will go on to score top prizes from these events are surplus to requirements and often thrown out. If you get into contact with someone for next season you could have 2 or 3 pairs down the same time as their main birds and get eggs out of birds which should be in the best condition they'll be in all year. They won't cost an arm and a leg and will be hatched into your own loft enviroment
Guest snowy2011 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Yer I thought of that but there all sprint to middle fanciers that's the trouble club racing only
Guest Owen Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 I think the first thing you need to decide is whether you want to collect pigeons or win pigeon races because birds with fancy names are often just trophies and a wast of money. If you decide to ignore what I have said here please do not entertain birds with the names of long dead Fanciers or from Strains that no longer test their birds on the road. If you want to win pigeon races you should forget about Strain names and pairing related birds together. The best breeders of successful racing pigeons are those that have proven themselves by winning races. The best mate for a top racing pigeon is one that has won at similar distances and is unrelated. If I had to start again I would buy my Stock Birds form Entire Clearance Sales where I would be looking for successful racers. I also think it is worth remembering that you should decide what sort of racing you want to do because you need to pair like with like. Pairing sprinter with distance birds is rarely a good idea and it works much better when you keep like with like. If you decide to buy from an advert in the Pigeon Mags do as I do. Ring the Fancier's Club Secretary and find out if what they are claiming is right. I know of people who claim to win a lot of races but they do not tell you that the Club they fly with has a very small membership and these wins are not all they are cracked up to be.I hope this will help youATB
dal2 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 I think the first thing you need to decide is whether you want to collect pigeons or win pigeon races because birds with fancy names are often just trophies and a wast of money. If you decide to ignore what I have said here please do not entertain birds with the names of long dead Fanciers or from Strains that no longer test their birds on the road. If you want to win pigeon races you should forget about Strain names and pairing related birds together. The best breeders of successful racing pigeons are those that have proven themselves by winning races. The best mate for a top racing pigeon is one that has won at similar distances and is unrelated. If I had to start again I would buy my Stock Birds form Entire Clearance Sales where I would be looking for successful racers. I also think it is worth remembering that you should decide what sort of racing you want to do because you need to pair like with like. Pairing sprinter with distance birds is rarely a good idea and it works much better when you keep like with like. If you decide to buy from an advert in the Pigeon Mags do as I do. Ring the Fancier's Club Secretary and find out if what they are claiming is right. I know of people who claim to win a lot of races but they do not tell you that the Club they fly with has a very small membership and these wins are not all they are cracked up to be.I hope this will help youATB Why is this Owen?
Guest Owen Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 dal2if you look at the breeding strategy of the race horse people you will quickly see that they will always pair like with like because they think that to do anything else would give you slow sprinters and distance horses with poor stamina. The most important rule in genetics is to reduce your selection criteria down to the lowest number of factors possible. So if you want chicken to lay lots of eggs you select for egg production and nothing else. Not colour or size or tameness just egg numbers. With racing pigeons it is quite simple in theory. You pair like with like on the basis of what sort of races they have won and test the progeny over the same distance and select again. I have shortened the process because I use the Bull System of breeding so my best cocks are paired with many hens. Due to the fact that I race pure widowhood I do not have much information about my hens because they only ever race as youngsters so I use a differant criteria. I mate Fed Winning Cocks with the daughters of Fed winning cocks.Certain animals and birds repond to selection better than others. Dogs are one of the animals that are quickly changed by selective breeding as you can see by all the differant breeds that have been produced. Pigeons are another species that can be changed relitively quickly providing that the selection is accurate and constant. The trick is to start with the best individuals possible and pair like with like, test and pair again. Boring really. The big differance between animals and birds that must prove tnemselves by physical effort is that you really can not afford to inbreed because you will not be able to fix the most important factor needed. Health, strength and vigour. I hope this has proven helpful.ATB
dal2 Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 dal2if you look at the breeding strategy of the race horse people you will quickly see that they will always pair like with like because they think that to do anything else would give you slow sprinters and distance horses with poor stamina. The most important rule in genetics is to reduce your selection criteria down to the lowest number of factors possible. So if you want chicken to lay lots of eggs you select for egg production and nothing else. Not colour or size or tameness just egg numbers. With racing pigeons it is quite simple in theory. You pair like with like on the basis of what sort of races they have won and test the progeny over the same distance and select again. I have shortened the process because I use the Bull System of breeding so my best cocks are paired with many hens. Due to the fact that I race pure widowhood I do not have much information about my hens because they only ever race as youngsters so I use a differant criteria. I mate Fed Winning Cocks with the daughters of Fed winning cocks.Certain animals and birds repond to selection better than others. Dogs are one of the animals that are quickly changed by selective breeding as you can see by all the differant breeds that have been produced. Pigeons are another species that can be changed relitively quickly providing that the selection is accurate and constant. The trick is to start with the best individuals possible and pair like with like, test and pair again. Boring really. The big differance between animals and birds that must prove tnemselves by physical effort is that you really can not afford to inbreed because you will not be able to fix the most important factor needed. Health, strength and vigour. I hope this has proven helpful.ATB Hmmm so all good racers make good breeders? If they dont then how can the Bull system be the best exponent of a breeding theory?If you have a cross bred pigeon that contains both traits of sprinter and distance how do they cancel each other out?Sorry for the questions( I am not a novice but enjoy diffo theories from diffo fanciers)
yeboah Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Geoff Cooper stated that he looks for the fastest pigeons to insert speed into his distance birds as they must race at speed from liberation to clocking ploders no good to him ,cant argue with the man as he has set the standard .
Guest Owen Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 dal2of course all good racers do not make good breeders and conversely some poor racers can breed good racers. In fact I have a bird that fits that profile very well. He has won well as a racer and he is probably the best looking cock I have. I would be well pleased if I had a shed full that looked and performed as he has done but it has not happened. As you pointed out there are many ideas that are followed by Fanciers, some of which seem to me to be down right silly but we are all entitled to our opinions and ideas. In answer to your query I would say that I want to have some sign as to where I am heading in regard to my breeding results so I have come up with the best practical solution I can think of. It is based on progeny testing as a form of measurement of how my breeders have performed. Any book on genetics would give the advice that progeny have to be measured and the only form of measurement we have is to race the birds fairly. I have reduced the selection criteria down to the lowest possible selection factors and I pair with a known target in mind. My criteria is race results pure and simple. I am sure that Geoff Cooper has his own ideas on how to produce the wonderful birds that he does but I rather doubt if he makes a habit of pairing sprinters to distance birds, but then he might. I do know that my sprinters do not like the Channel and I would not dream of sending them over there because they have not been bred to do that job. I certainly have no idea as to the detail of what Geoff Cooper actually does and I would not care to speculate.As to my own results, I am happy that I am going in the right direction because I have a small team of birds that have all secured very good Fed positions and I have a problem because I find them very hard to pool. This is because I am never sure which bird will be on form any given week due to the fact that they are very evenly matched. If you doubt what I say I am quite happy to let you have my results so that you can see that I am delivering and it is not a lot of theory based on something I have been told or perhaps read.
dal2 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 dal2of course all good racers do not make good breeders and conversely some poor racers can breed good racers. In fact I have a bird that fits that profile very well. He has won well as a racer and he is probably the best looking cock I have. I would be well pleased if I had a shed full that looked and performed as he has done but it has not happened. As you pointed out there are many ideas that are followed by Fanciers, some of which seem to me to be down right silly but we are all entitled to our opinions and ideas. In answer to your query I would say that I want to have some sign as to where I am heading in regard to my breeding results so I have come up with the best practical solution I can think of. It is based on progeny testing as a form of measurement of how my breeders have performed. Any book on genetics would give the advice that progeny have to be measured and the only form of measurement we have is to race the birds fairly. I have reduced the selection criteria down to the lowest possible selection factors and I pair with a known target in mind. My criteria is race results pure and simple. I am sure that Geoff Cooper has his own ideas on how to produce the wonderful birds that he does but I rather doubt if he makes a habit of pairing sprinters to distance birds, but then he might. I do know that my sprinters do not like the Channel and I would not dream of sending them over there because they have not been bred to do that job. I certainly have no idea as to the detail of what Geoff Cooper actually does and I would not care to speculate.As to my own results, I am happy that I am going in the right direction because I have a small team of birds that have all secured very good Fed positions and I have a problem because I find them very hard to pool. This is because I am never sure which bird will be on form any given week due to the fact that they are very evenly matched. If you doubt what I say I am quite happy to let you have my results so that you can see that I am delivering and it is not a lot of theory based on something I have been told or perhaps read. No mate I dinny need to see yer results I am merely pointing out, in a way that lets you explain your reasoning fully, that theories are just that and the every fancier has diffo ones.It was right on que Yeboah coming in with his comment on Mr Cooper.I agree that the pairing of winner to winner cannot be a bad thing and that a potent breeding cock on the bull system would be magic but there are flaws in both!Your winning cock that you would like to clone? Would it not be better to look at his ancestry rather than trying to breed the same from him?Best of luck mate and thanks for the banter
gulkie Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 snowy thers ur answer ask owen to sell u a couple of pair [i like his response]
Guest snowy2011 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 thank you for all of your comments He flys sprint he said, I would like to fly middle to long Yes this is true that so any people have so many different opinions on everything, what works for one wouldn't work for another, take for instance I've had a tribal start this year lost quite a lot of my team I still don't understand widohood properly so I've got to still keep fighting.I had been trying widohood but it just didn't work the system I got given is like anyone someone gives you they miss out all the little adjustments that make the system iv found it very hardto find my feet to be honest but hopefully one day I will get there, that mark Caldwell system on DVD and book I have been told that that is the one to follow if you have just started up because he tells you everything apparently? His DVD is on eBay at the moment. But this year I'm fed up on spending my hard resend money on things that don't make a difference. One person says that it's fantastic and the other says don't wasse your money or time, it's so confusing. Like the avierform deal in the homing world for £49 I was going to get that but I don't know, because no one has really answered me on that. I don't like antibiotics so I was looking for the next best thing But once again thank you for all the advice on the things I have asked
andy Burgess Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 how do you choose ,maybe that hard earned cash could wait until some "clearance sales" come up ? and as for the widow-hood ,well its like any system ,takes time ,even when told every finer detail ,because of a diffrent loft ,diffrent birds ,diffrent location etc etc may not get the same result ,but thats for you to find out ,dont give up on it , stick with it ,adjust to suit yourself and your birds ,thats the key .Owen is the man to ask about widowhood system (regardless of distance flown) . and i like what "Old Yellow" has as his signature ,read it ?? and very good luck to you.
Guest Owen Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 Perhaps I should first address the term "Theory" because I am not even slightly interested in testing theories. I would much prefer the term "Plan" because with a plan you can compare results with what you planned and come to a realistic conclusion as to where you are at any given moment in time. When people mention "Theories" to me in respect of pigeon racing I immeadiately think of Eye Sign, Wing Theory, and other unproven rubbish. The only thing that matters to me are the results that my birds turn in and all my judgements are geared around them. I will leave the Theories to the Scientists who are able to benefit from the work of other Scientists and usually have access to their notes.In regard to the bird that I mentioned, I am not fazed by what has happened there because there will always be situations like that when you are trying to set up a family of birds which have the genes you need to find and pass on to the next generation. These days I have the problem of selection of Stock Birds. I decided to take the late Taffy Bowen's advice a while ago. He believed that we should decide on the number of Stock Cocks to keep and stick to the number as a discipline. My number is 12 and when I evaluate my race birds at the end of a year I find that some of my race birds are actually better than some of the Stock Pigeons. According to the plan I have set myself this means that I should replace the Stock Birds with the better Race Birds so that I can progess. My method of testing the value of Stock Cocks are, as I have already said, to mate them to multiple hens and subject the young to progeny testing so I would find breeding from Race birds a step backwards. In fact I do not mate my widowhood cocks at all. They never see a hen.Thankyou for entering into this debate and I hope you are happy with my replies. ATBOwen
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