Walter swanston Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 I received the loft position for a new member today by the use of a GPS handheld device and I have passed the information onto Linda Brooks at the SHU to see if it is acceptable.I know the SHU are in the process of preparing a form to be used by the fanciers operating these devices.They are priced on the internet at around £100.I suggest they are infinitly preferable and more accurate than sticking holes in ordnance survey maps.By the way this procedure has been passed by the SHU council
Guest Tooshy Boy Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 THINK YOU WOULD NEED A MEETING WITH THE FANCIER FOR THAT ONE MATE.////
victorious Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 I received the loft position for a new member today by the use of a GPS handheld device and I have passed the information onto Linda Brooks at the SHU to see if it is acceptable.I know the SHU are in the process of preparing a form to be used by the fanciers operating these devices.They are priced on the internet at around £100.I suggest they are infinitly preferable and more accurate than sticking holes in ordnance survey maps.By the way this procedure has been passed by the SHU council EXACTLY TELL THE RPRA THAT, FIGHTER PLANES APPARENTLY CAN FIRE MISSLES THREW TARGET DOORS THEY DONT STICK A PIN IN A MAP WHAT A FLIPPIN JOKE THEY FORGET THIS IS 2012 THE RPRA ARE STUCK IN A TIME WARP THE IRISH HOMING UNION HAS BEEN USING GPS MEASURENTS FOR YEARS NOW BUT THE RPRA DONT RECONISE THIS WAY OF MEASUREMENT WHY IS BEYOND ME
fid Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 club officials did mine 2wk ago, just placed gps device on landing board and all sorted in 5mns.
Pompey Mick Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 EXACTLY TELL THE RPRA THAT, FIGHTER PLANES APPARENTLY CAN FIRE MISSLES THREW TARGET DOORS THEY DONT STICK A PIN IN A MAP WHAT A FLIPPIN JOKE THEY FORGET THIS IS 2012 THE RPRA ARE STUCK IN A TIME WARP THE IRISH HOMING UNION HAS BEEN USING GPS MEASURENTS FOR YEARS NOW BUT THE RPRA DONT RECONISE THIS WAY OF MEASUREMENT WHY IS BEYOND MEI think you'll find that the RPRA is bringing in GPS Locations at the AGM. The stumbling block is that the co-ordinates from GPS do not match up with the co-ordinates obtained from pin-pricking a map, I believe the RPRA has obtained software to match GPS co-ordinates with Ordnance Survey co-ordinates. Before this was available, in order to accommodate GPS, it would have meant that every RPRA member would have had to gone over to GPS and be re-measured for every race point in a single season, an almost impossible task.When we do go to satellite mapping I think that everyone's Lat/Long should be available for inspection, then you could check on Google Earth the authenticity of everyone's distances.I quite agree it's a much better and more accurate way of measuring and I shall gradually re-map all my Club members in this way.
Guest IB Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Woudn't the same then be needed for all racepoints?
TOMMY R Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 at the nehu agm this weekend there will a vote on a proposal to purchase a gps system (gms-2 gis hand held topcom) this is so all existing lofts in the nehu will be remapped during the 2012 season in preparation for the 2013 season .in trials we found the system to be acurate .the remapping will be done free of charge and no distances will be issued untill every loft in nehu is done. however if any one moves thier loft after being remapped there will be a charge
OLDYELLOW Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 EXACTLY TELL THE RPRA THAT, FIGHTER PLANES APPARENTLY CAN FIRE MISSLES THREW TARGET DOORS THEY DONT STICK A PIN IN A MAP WHAT A FLIPPIN JOKE THEY FORGET THIS IS 2012 THE RPRA ARE STUCK IN A TIME WARP THE IRISH HOMING UNION HAS BEEN USING GPS MEASURENTS FOR YEARS NOW BUT THE RPRA DONT RECONISE THIS WAY OF MEASUREMENT WHY IS BEYOND METhe difference with the Irish system is they have two beacons and measure accurately from these , I believe i read it many years ago on the IHU site , GPS has it's limitations as they scramble the data and can be up to 100 yards out at any time , this is the information that we are fed , however aeroplanes and boats use gps with no problem whatsoever . Maybe the problem actually is more likely to be that those that are using the gps in the first place aren't accurately using it it properly or familiar with new technology although been around for many years maybe they like to stick to map pricking because if anyone could collate loft data and race point data then a new union could be formed far much quicker with using the newer technology ????
just ask me Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 more info on what gps and the Irish homing union some good info http://www.irishhomingunion.com/page10.htm In the sport of pigeon racing, knowing as accurately as possible what the latitude and longditude (location) of a pigeon loft is of paramount importance. With the location of the release point also known, the distance the pigeons fly can readily be computed. With the boom in the Irish economy, new housing estates sprung up faster than the mapping system could keep pace with, and the fanciers moving into these estates were faced with a problem.The expert map-readers in the Irish Homing Union had no maps to read for these new fanciers. THE NEED FOR A RELIABLE POSITIONING SYSTEM Apart from the sport of pigeon-racing at all, trying to find out where exactly he is on the globe has been a problem for mankind since the dawn of history. Down the years, many systems have been tried, but each one has had its disadvantages. The Cold War and the arms race that developed after World War II injected a real sense of urgency into solving this problem. The targeting of ICBMs (intercontinental balistic missiles) became so advances that these missiles could be expected to pinpoint targets thousands of miles away. The ability to take out your opponent's missiles had a profound effect on the balance of power. But you could only knock out enemy missile silos (storage places) if you knew where exactly you were launching your attack missiles from. Most of the United States missiles were at sea on submarines, so the Americans had to come up with a system whereby a submarine could surface at sea and know within minutes its exact location. Fortunately for them, they had the kind of money ($12 billion!) to build such a world-wide system. Thus GPS was born. HOW DOES GPS WORK? The basis of GPS is "triangulation". In simple terms, triangulation is a method of calculating the relative positions of objects using the geometry of triangles. By very accurately measuring our distance from at least three (but preferably four) satellites high above the earth we can establish our position anywhere on the surface of the world. A GPS receiver measures distance using the travel time of radio signals. Knowing the distance from the satellite and where exactly it is, is the secret. Lets look at a very simplified example, to see how it works. Suppose we know that we are exactly 10,000 miles from satellite 1. This narrows down the possible positions we could be in the whole universe to the surface of a sphere that has a radius of 10,000 miles centered on satellite 1. At the same time, if we also know that we are exactly 11,000 miles from satellite 2 ,we must be on a second sphere 11,000 miles from satellite 2. That means that we can only be in one of the positions where the two spheres intersect. When we bring in satellite 3 which is 12,000 miles above us and that sphere comes into play, there are only two possible positions where we can be, and one of those is deep in space and so can be ruled out. But by bringing in satellite 4, the position is established beyond doubt. Also, the fourth satellite is needed to synchronise your receiver's clock with a common time standard which is strictly adhered to by the clocks on board all the satellites. In general, the more satellites used, the greater the positioning accuracy. The Americans have twenty-four satellites up there, ensuring that a sufficient number are always in position to give information when needed. WHERE ARE THE NAVIGATION SATELLITES? The satellites are located in what is referred to as 'Medium Earth Orbits (MEOs) at an altitude of about 20,000 kilometres. MEOs are the orbits of choice for a number of reasons: their stability enables exact orbit predictions; the satellites travel relatively slowly and so can be observed over several hours, and the satellites can be arranged in a constellation so that at least four are visible from any point on the earth's surface at any time. As stated above, the distance to each of the satellites is established by multiplying a signal's travel time by the speed of light. That sounds great, but, unfortunately, there are problems! THE PROBLEMS Firstly, the US millitary, understandably, I suppose, could not be expected to leave their system available to people who could use it against them, so they introduced Selective Ability (SA). This changed the time signals enough to bring in inaccuracies of up to 100m in the locations computed by anyone other than themselves. Secondly, the speed of light is only constant in a vacuum, and the GPS signals get slowed down a bit on their way from space. For example, the Ionosphere, the layer of atmosphere ranging in altitude from 50 to 500km consists largely of ionized particles which can exert a perturbing effect on GPS signals. The troposphere, the lower part of the atmosphere that encompasses our weather, is full of watervapour and varies in temperature and pressure. Thirdly, as the Americans controlled the entire system, they could turn it off or on as they thought fit. SA on its own, regardless of the atmospheric problems, meant that GPS could not be considered for use in loft location, as the built-in inaccuracy was too great. But then came Differential Global Positioning System (DGPS) DIFFERENTIAL GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM (DGPS) The idea is quite simple. With GPS, a receiver takes in timing signals from at least four satellites to establish where it is. But if you put in a land-based reference receiver on a point that has been very accurately surveyed and keep it fixed there, it already knows where exactly it is! Instead of using the timing signals from GPS to calculate its position, it figures out what the travel time of the GPS signals should be, and compares it with what they actually are. The difference is an "error correction" factor, This error information is passed on so as to give more accurate measurements. MARINE DGPS When the Irish Homing Union learned at the turn of the century that as an aid to shipping, the authorities ( General Lighthouse Authorities) had established numerous land-based, fixed reference receivers around the coast of Great Britain and Ireland, giving an accuracy of up to 5m, it decided to adopt the Marine DGPS. The equipment used required two separate aerials - one to receive the GPS signal, and the other for the correction factor from the fixed reference receiver. Depending on where it was calculating loft locations, the IHu used signals from Tory Island (north coast), Loop Head (west coast), Mizen Head(south coast), Nash Point(south Wales) or Point Lynas (north Wales). WAAS, EGNOS, MSAS and GLONASS The rest of the world were not going to let the Americans have it all their own way, and so other systems were developed around the world. In answer to the US military, the Russian military established their GLONASS system (Global Orbiting Navigation Satellite System) As an aid to navigation, non-military systems were also developed, which correct the errors of the military systems. WAAS (Wide Area Augumentation System) is maintained by North America. MSAS (Multifunctional Satellite Augumentation System) is developed by Japan and other Asiatic countries. EGNOS European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service is maintained by the European Commission, the European Space Agency and the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation. In principle, all systems are the same and even more astinishing, the systems are compatible to each other. For obvious reasons, EGNOS is of more interest to us in this part of the world, and it entered its pre-operational phase in 2006. It is Europe's first activity in the field of global navigation satellite system, and is a precursor to Galileo, the full global navigation system under development in Europe. Consisting of three geostationary satellites and a network of ground stations, EGNOS achieves its aim by transmitting a signal containing information on the reliability and accuracy of the positioning signals sent out by the American GPS system and the Russian GLOSNASS system. It allows users in Europe and beyond to determine their position to within 2 metres. By the way, with all the error correction satellites going up, there seemed little sense in the Americans continuing their 'Selective Ability' built in error, so as of 1st May, 2000, it was discontinued, and the GPS error now ranges around the 20 metre mark. We are glad to report that the Irish Homing Union Differential GPS system in operation uses EGNOS, and we believe our calculations to be accurate to a metre of even less. for me its the most accurate system we can use today
Walter swanston Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 For the information of Scottish members I have just had word back from the SHU they seem to have accepted my GPS loft measurement
Roland Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 In Canada, agree the flyers are more than well apart, they have used the GPS for yonks. They also allow the convoyer, if of nescate, to move from the allocated lib site and send the secs / member the place / cordinates of where they have been released from. A boon her that wouild be too, especially in view of cramp sites and B.O.P etc. Also they can verify their times via Email which are checked a validated on the next shipping noght. Gosh we are in the 21st centuary, and all the governing bodies want to know is.... 'Can we make money....' Time, while I'm at it, for the governing bodies to enforce sensible ET rings. To make it compulsury to accept any legal person from joiuning their clubs. Ok if banned, or been found guilty of cheating ... For the information of Scottish members I have just had word back from the SHU they seem to have accepted my GPS loft measurement Lerts hope so. and that it sets a precedent.
Guest stb- Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 EXACTLY TELL THE RPRA THAT, FIGHTER PLANES APPARENTLY CAN FIRE MISSLES THREW TARGET DOORS THEY DONT STICK A PIN IN A MAP WHAT A FLIPPIN JOKE THEY FORGET THIS IS 2012 THE RPRA ARE STUCK IN A TIME WARP THE IRISH HOMING UNION HAS BEEN USING GPS MEASURENTS FOR YEARS NOW BUT THE RPRA DONT RECONISE THIS WAY OF MEASUREMENT WHY IS BEYOND MEAYE AND THEY FIRE THEM THROUGH THE WRONG LETTER BOXES AT TIMES ASWELL ONLY AS GOOD AS THE GUY WHO PUTS THE INFO IN , AT LEAST ON A MAP YOU CAN SEE THE PIN HOLES ACTUALLY AT YOUR HOUSE I SUPPOSE , ONE WRONG NUMBEER PUCHED IN AND YOU COULD BE IN CARLISLE NOT MILLISLE WITH THE GPRS
Pompey Mick Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 I am in agreement with modern technology such as GPS being used but I would prefer that the marking of a loft would be done on Google Earth, which you could then print off and send to the RPRA for them to enter into their database.This website is ideal, you can zoom on to the loft and it will give your Lat/Long in the boxes below.http://itouchmap.com/latlong.html
Walter swanston Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 I am in agreement with modern technology such as GPS being used but I would prefer that the marking of a loft would be done on Google Earth, which you could then print off and send to the RPRA for them to enter into their database.This website is ideal, you can zoom on to the loft and it will give your Lat/Long in the boxes below.http://itouchmap.com/latlong.html Good idea except that google earth has just told me that they do not have imagery for our region
dwh Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 have heard nehu are to re-measure all lofts using gps [don't quote me ] is it as accurate as pricking???????
The Grass Cutter Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Good idea except that google earth has just told me that they do not have imagery for our regionI brought up at a SHU Council meeting that the pros and cons of G.P.S. should be discussed by the Council and explained that I had already used Google Earth and G.P.S. to identify my loft position. After a lot of discussion, the SHU Council came to the conclusion that the SHU must once again embrace 21st century technology and agreed that the adoption of G.P.S. be a proposal from the SHU Council for the AGM and indeed it was duly passed unanimously at the AGM.Remember you must have two senior officials from your organisation to locate your loft with the G.P.S. unit and they must complete the correct form. You cannot use Google Earth printout to fix your loft position.
Walter swanston Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 I brought up at a SHU Council meeting that the pros and cons of G.P.S. should be discussed by the Council and explained that I had already used Google Earth and G.P.S. to identify my loft position. After a lot of discussion, the SHU Council came to the conclusion that the SHU must once again embrace 21st century technology and agreed that the adoption of G.P.S. be a proposal from the SHU Council for the AGM and indeed it was duly passed unanimously at the AGM.Remember you must have two senior officials from your organisation to locate your loft with the G.P.S. unit and they must complete the correct form. You cannot use Google Earth printout to fix your loft position. I am going to buy a G.P.S. unit for my fed and loan it out to clubs as required and of course I will follow the presribed procedure in its use.Could you advise on which device to buy?
TOMMY R Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 have heard nehu are to re-measure all lofts using gps [don't quote me ] is it as accurate as pricking??????? yes during 2011 season we tested the system the nehu intend to use and found co ordinates the same as lofts pin pricked at the same time tommy
Pompey Mick Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Would this be suitable for loft locations, it looks the part.http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Fixed-Marine-Internal-Antenna/dp/B0043VMRIK/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1326229320&sr=8-14
just ask me Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 most Google maps or similar are a good bit out lads
frank-123 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 what Gps handheld's have been passed?
JohnQuinn Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 I'm all for this type of measuring distances. At present there can be as much as a 200yd leeway from the correct measurement of the loft (so i've been told) that theoretically could be 400yd's of a swing from one loft to another, and that's More than enough to alter a true result.
OLDYELLOW Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Although I'm in favour of gps positioning it would be unfair for a few to be measured by one method and others by another , so really all lofts should be done before being allowed imo
Walter swanston Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Posted January 10, 2012 I started this thread and I do not want to go on about it, but surely we must agree that it is time for pigeon racing to enter the 21st. century and use all possible aids to our sport there can be no doubt that a modern GPS device is more reliable than sticking a pin on a map I have been told of a fancier who used such a device and found that his loft position was 500 yards out.
frank-123 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 I started this thread and I do not want to go on about it, but surely we must agree that it is time for pigeon racing to enter the 21st. century and use all possible aids to our sport there can be no doubt that a modern GPS device is more reliable than sticking a pin on a map I have been told of a fancier who used such a device and found that his loft position was 500 yards out. don't have a problem but if everyone is using different handheld and maybe not the same satellite will it give the same reading?
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