When To Medicate?

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Schaerlaeckens speaks to Dr DeWeerd about paratyphoid

 

PARATYPHOID (SALMONELLA).

 

I have three questions about paratyphoid. - In a German magazine there was a publication that no less than 80 percent of pigeons are infected. Is it really that high or what do you think? - My next question. I myself do not take chances and every fall I medicate all my birds against salmonella for about two weeks without having the birds tested before. Right or wrong? - Belgian champions Pros Roosen and Derwa have been doing the same as I do since many years. They are very happy with it apart from one thing: Too many birds get unfertile at a too young age. They wonder if the medicine they use against paratyphoid (Chloramphenicol and furaltodone) are to blame. Is that so? Dr de Weerd. Paratyphoid is indeed a far more common disease than people think. The more birds I had had tested in the lab the more surprised I was that so many birds carry the salmonella bacteria. I would say 80 percent is a bit exaggerated but as many as 40 percent of pigeons do have the salmonella bacteria indeed. What you and others do (take no chances and medicate yearly for a period of about two weeks even without salmonella was proven) is something I can advise everybody to do. The reason is that when you have say 50 birds it is an illusion to think none of them have paratyphoid. The effect of the medication will never be that all your birds will be 100 percent free of the disease but you will surely prevent a lot of problems. As for your last question I do not think that the fact that pigeons become unfertile at a younger age has anything to do with the medication. I think it is due to the fact that you demand too much of the pigeons. They are raced week after week and you will have to pay a price for that. This price is they are worn out sooner. What you can do to keep your birds fertile as long as possible is to give them much freedom. If that is impossible for whatever reason put the pigeons in big aviaries. I would say: make them as big as you can. Small aviaries 'are killing' the prisoners in them. So let the birds fly! Note of the author. Once I was in Japan where I visited a great importer of very expensive birds which had been Aces in Holland and Belgium or which had won National races. Much to my surprise I saw some of them fly out freely. 'How come this man let the birds which had cost fortunes let free with a great risk to lose them?' I wondered. The Japanese saw my surprise and gave the following explanation: 'These birds you see on top of the roof are all Aces for which I paid fortunes indeed. But at the age of about eight or a bit older one after the other became infertile. I bought these birds to sell their babies. But what can I do with birds which do not fill their eggs? I know about others who sell babies off of birds of 15 years or older. Occasionally this is possible but not very often. In many cases people are cheated when they purchase babies off of very old birds, though I hope there will be a change for the better now that we can make DNA tests to check the origin. When the Super birds I bought became infertile I let them out as I had nothing to lose. If the birds got lost they got lost. And you know what happened? I lost many of them indeed but off of those which did not fly away some began to fill their eggs again. Because of the freedom.' That was what the Japanese guy told me and dr de Weerd agrees. Freedom is important. Small lofts are killing the potency of birds.

 

PARATYPHOID ONCE MORE

 

The general idea is now that in case your birds suffer from paratyphoid the best thing to do is medicate them first for a couple of weeks with antibiotics and needle them after the medication. Is this the right thing to do and what is the best vaccine to needle the birds with? Furthermore some people claim that if you needle birds during the racing season they will get into a better condition and consequently better results will follow. Is that so? Dr Weerd: I do not support needling birds against paratyphoid. I did not 20 years ago and I am still against it. The reason is that the vaccines we have got now are not any better than those of the old days. 20 Years research did not bring us any further and believe me I know what I am talking about as salmonella has always interested me very much. I know that there are people who needle their young birds during the season as they mean it stimulates the condition. In my opinion they believe in ghosts. Furthermore I want to emphasize that paratyphoid in Europe is mainly a winter disease. The bacteria seem to flourish better in cold and humid circumstances. Every year in October it is the same story: Then I get phone calls from everywhere and the story is always the same: Paratyphoid. And then there is another thing. In fall pigeons moult (in Europe, Japan and America) and it is very demanding from a pigeon body when in a short period of time so many feathers have to be renewed. Pigeons are weakened and when that is the case they are more vulnerable to all kinds of diseases. Salmonella is one of them. When we have a dry fall the paratyphoid problems start later in winter. In tropical countries I have noticed the same: more outbreaks in periods when the humidity is high.

 

RISKY

 

Another question about this theme. Is there anything a fancier can do to prevent an outbreak of paratyphoid? Dr De Weerd: 'First of all I want to tell you that paratyphoid and quality are quite different things. I know that some people say that good pigeons never get sick. That is bull. When you have many eggs which are not filled or little babies in the nest that die you better watch out. For 90 percent sure you have paratyphoid and this has nothing to do with quality. Even the best pigeons in the world can get it. But the question was 'if we can do something to prevent paratyphoid?' I think we can indeed. Which fanciers do have most problems? A: Owners of breeding stations. B: People that import many birds from different fanciers. What I mean to say is this: You have a greater chance to get paratyphoid when birds of different fanciers get into contact with each other unless you take measures of course. Paratyphoid is a much more serious problem with pigeons than many fanciers are aware of. You know what often happens? The birds are not in good shape, the fancier medicates against all kinds of everything apart from their real problem: Paratyphoid.

About this disease I have one final remark: Many vets (collegians) are undeservedly accused of being incapable. Fanciers send the droppings of birds to a vet and he in turn sends these droppings to a lab to have them tested. When in a lab the bacteria is found you may be sure you have a problem. But if they do not find the bacteria, so if the test is negative, this does not mean it cannot be there !!! Moreover it is possible that the bacteria is not found in one sample of the droppings but it is found in another. This is something good to remember for every pigeon fancier. If you have a healthy family of birds the best way to keep it healthy is never to import other birds. But import other birds now and then and try out new crossings is an absolute must for every ambitious fancier. That's why I agree with your method: Medicate preventively yearly. Of course there is also the possibility of a blood test. This is a much safer method

[johnnyksspeedshop]

wow Johny , i thought you were a complete novice ? it appears you know more than many of us ??

 

Hi Andy, I am a novice to racing, but not to pigeons. I've been raising them my whole life, just never competitively raced them, and it seems to a be a whole different ball park. You are all much better resources than me. I did however go to school for 4 years for Clinical Laboratory Science and have macroscopically viewed, cultured and tested drugs on many organisms. Some pathogens are true pathogens and are always considered harmful and need to be eradicated, while other pathogens are normal flora when the immune system is good and conditions are normal, but upon change/stress become the predominant organism and thats when they are dangerous. Most often this happens to somebody who already has a compromised immune system, like somebody on drugs that suppress their immune system, or a very young or very old hospitalized patient. I know everything cant relate to pigeons, but most of it actually works the same way. In fact, the "B" in our "B-cells" derive from the word "bursa" which are part of a birds immune system, and have memory for the vaccine, hence cause a quicker immune response.

 

hi johnny, i never medicate my pigeons unless they are ill...something ive learned over the years to do..i have studied pigeons medications for a number of years and although i dont know it all i do know enough to get by shall we say.

 

one thing ive learned is to never medicate if there is no sign of illness and yes you are right too many doctors these days do give out medications more than they should in humans.

but some vets can also be said to be doing just that!

i dont bother with many medications on the market for obvious reasons and stick to what i know best.

under medicating is just as big a problem as over medicating because both bring on the same problems in illnesses getting immune to these.

i would never use baytril untill its absolutely nescesery,opting to use a more controllable medication like amoxicillin.

canker has also gained momentum with wild birds being found to have this problem that many thought was a pigeon ilness.

i believe that there are too many meds on the market that dont do their job and the uk has a policy of only allowing 5% strength in most treatments.

while on the continent they are allowed to sell the 10% strength..which i personally feel is a better option as it zaps the canker rather then mildly attacking it in its 5% form.

better understanding

 

Hey Paul, nice to hear your medication process. That 5% may indeed cause more resistant strains if it is not totally wiping out the pathogens. Doctors often use more than one drug because it often kills the whole pathogen population and people may be sensitive to higher dosages.

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

Good read Rooster,

[johnnyksspeedshop]

Good read indeed Rooster, but some things dont make much sense to me, such as:

 

3. Fanciers that treat their birds against paratyphoid in fall (6 weeks before mating) do the right thing. He is against vaccinating unless birds are infected. In that case a cure should be followed by an injection.

 

-Is he saying treat the birds with an antibiotics if they are not infected, and vaccinated when they are infected? That is nonsense in my opinion.

 

 

18. Doctor de Weerd claims that pro biotics are a pure waste. His college dr. Schroeder fully agrees

 

-I think probiotics are important after antibiotic therapy. Antibiotics destroy both pathogens and beneficial bacteria, and probiotics should help jump start the beneficial bacteria colonies.

[andy Burgess]

Hi Andy, I am a novice to racing, but not to pigeons. I've been raising them my whole life, just never competitively raced them, and it seems to a be a whole different ball park. You are all much better resources than me. I did however go to school for 4 years for Clinical Laboratory Science and have macroscopically viewed, cultured and tested drugs on many organisms. Some pathogens are true pathogens and are always considered harmful and need to be eradicated, while other pathogens are normal flora when the immune system is good and conditions are normal, but upon change/stress become the predominant organism and thats when they are dangerous. Most often this happens to somebody who already has a compromised immune system, like somebody on drugs that suppress their immune system, or a very young or very old hospitalized patient. I know everything cant relate to pigeons, but most of it actually works the same way. In fact, the "B" in our "B-cells" derive from the word "bursa" which are part of a birds immune system, and have memory for the vaccine, hence cause a quicker immune response.

 

 

 

Hey Paul, nice to hear your medication process. That 5% may indeed cause more resistant strains if it is not totally wiping out the pathogens. Doctors often use more than one drug because it often kills the whole pathogen population and people may be sensitive to higher dosages.

your C.V. is fully accepted Johny , and your view,s valued , well done .

[johnnyksspeedshop]

your C.V. is fully accepted Johny , and your view,s valued , well done .

 

That gives me hope The economy is so bad, no else accepts my C.V.

[andy Burgess]

That gives me hope The economy is so bad, no else accepts my C.V.

keep going pal ,there is light at the end of the tunnel ,its normally "some dude" carrying a torch offering work you dont want or need , but hey

[johnnyksspeedshop]

keep going pal ,there is light at the end of the tunnel ,its normally "some dude" carrying a torch offering work you dont want or need , but hey

 

I already met that dude, and accepted. Yay for washing dishes, delivering food and bartending Haha, ok back on topic, enough with the economy rant, but saving money through only buying the medications needed is a necessity for my economic status, so it relates

[andy Burgess]

I already met that dude, and accepted. Yay for washing dishes, delivering food and bartending Haha, ok back on topic, enough with the economy rant, but saving money through only buying the medications needed is a necessity for my economic status, so it relates

very true , well done

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Good read indeed Rooster, but some things dont make much sense to me, such as:

 

3. Fanciers that treat their birds against paratyphoid in fall (6 weeks before mating) do the right thing. He is against vaccinating unless birds are infected. In that case a cure should be followed by an injection.

 

-Is he saying treat the birds with an antibiotics if they are not infected, and vaccinated when they are infected? That is nonsense in my opinion.

 

 

18. Doctor de Weerd claims that pro biotics are a pure waste. His college dr. Schroeder fully agrees

 

-I think probiotics are important after antibiotic therapy. Antibiotics destroy both pathogens and beneficial bacteria, and probiotics should help jump start the beneficial bacteria colonies.

 

I didn't post these interviews thinking I agree with all their content,I only posted them as some people may find it interesting to hear points of view from people who have greater experience in this field than most.

 

He is saying he recommends jagging only if the bird has been infected and only after it has been treated,presumably with antibitoics.

 

In the other interview posted Henk DeWeerd seems to believe that jagging for paratyphoid is the wrong way to go entirely.

 

Just goes to show how these trained professionals have differences in opinion as much as us normal fanciers .One thing they do seem to agree on is that its of benefit to treat for two weeks in the winter against paratyphoid but I'm sure somebody else will say otherwise.

[Guest Tooshy Boy]

BANG ON LEWIS..VETS JUST GRAB YOUR MONEY PUSH YOU OUT THE DOOR.THEY NO YOU WILL BE BACK .THEY JUST GUESS WHAT MAY BE UP WITH THE BIRD BUT THEY AINT GOT A CLUE MATE.

[johnnyksspeedshop]

I didn't post these interviews thinking I agree with all their content,I only posted them as some people may find it interesting to hear points of view from people who have greater experience in this field than most.

 

He is saying he recommends jagging only if the bird has been infected and only after it has been treated,presumably with antibitoics.

 

In the other interview posted Henk DeWeerd seems to believe that jagging for paratyphoid is the wrong way to go entirely.

 

Just goes to show how these trained professionals have differences in opinion as much as us normal fanciers .One thing they do seem to agree on is that its of benefit to treat for two weeks in the winter against paratyphoid but I'm sure somebody else will say otherwise.

 

Its good to hear their opinions rooster, thanks for posting. To my knowledge though, a vaccine is just meant to help your body recognize the pathogen faster by creating an immune response to non-infectious parts(antigens) of the pathogen contained in the vaccine. So if the bird is already infected, I dont see the point in putting more burden on its immune system with a vaccine. Thats why I wonder why he would have this view.

[knoxjn]

i have never treated for paratyphoid know litle or nothing about it are there apparent symptoms if so what are they and how do you go about treating is it a vet visit ?

[Tony C]

i have never treated for paratyphoid know litle or nothing about it are there apparent symptoms if so what are they and how do you go about treating is it a vet visit ?

 

Symptoms are swelling of joints (mainly ankle joints) a dropped wing, eggs that fail to hatch (so called black eggs because the chick dies in the shell). If Paratyphoid is suspected its a vet job, best to send a pigeon rather than just droppings. The vet will check for Paratyphoid via a culture test.

[knoxjn]

cheers mate never had any of those symptoms touch wood

[just ask me]

why do feed pro biotics when i rarely hear of a doctor prescibeing them to a human if or never bought the dog to a vet to be told to give him pro biotics

[Guest IB]

Its good to hear their opinions rooster, thanks for posting. To my knowledge though, a vaccine is just meant to help your body recognize the pathogen faster by creating an immune response to non-infectious parts(antigens) of the pathogen contained in the vaccine. So if the bird is already infected, I dont see the point in putting more burden on its immune system with a vaccine. Thats why I wonder why he would have this view.

 

I reckon you're right about how a vaccine works. But that immune response isn't any different from a bird that has previously been infected - when it first manufactured an antibody specifically to eradicate that disease, together with a 'memory' of it, so that next time round it'll recognise it & act faster to eradicate it.

 

So if the bird has had the disease before, and is re-infected, the immune system immediately recognises the disease and sends these specific antibodies right away to eradicate it. IMO trying to vaccinate a bird that already has / had the disease will simply spark an already-learned immune response - it will send antibodies which will negate the vaccine.

[johnnyksspeedshop]

why do feed pro biotics when i rarely hear of a doctor prescibeing them to a human if or never bought the dog to a vet to be told to give him pro biotics

 

Over here doctors often suggest eating live yogurt for humans and dogs after antibiotic treatments. My brothers bulldog just finished some antibiotics and the vet suggested mixing some live yogurt in with the dog food.

 

IB, exactly my thoughts on vaccines after an infection as well. In fact, since an infection contains all of the antigens of the pathogen, it should cause an even better immune response the next time.

[Guest IB]

why do feed pro biotics when i rarely hear of a doctor prescibeing them to a human if or never bought the dog to a vet to be told to give him pro biotics

 

I had previously thought of probiotics as non-medicinal, but a book on the subject shows that they have been used in research into some human bowel diseases.

 

Extract from a human research paper :-

 

Lactic acid bacteria have been used successfully, with few adverse effects, to prevent antibiotic associated diarrhea, to treat acute infantile diarrhea and recurrent Clostridium difficile disease and to treat various diarrheal illnesses.

Siitonen, Vapaatalo, Salminen, Gordin, Saxelin, Wikberg, & Kirkkola, 1990; Saavedra, Bauman, Oung, Perman, & Yolken, 1994; Biller, Katz, Floves,Buie, & Gorbach, 1995).

 

This is perhaps the first article I read on probiotics in birds, here is an extract from it:-

 

http://www.avianweb.com/Lactobacillus.htm

 

Strains of Lactobacillus Acidophilus and other lactic bacteria have been found to possess marked inhibitory properties against intestinal pathogens as well as food spoilage organisms. Selective inhibition has been attributed in part to the ability of lactic acid organisms to produce natural antibiotics. Lactobacillus Acidophilus specifically has been reported as producing antibiotics, notably acidophillin, lactolin and acidolin.

 

The acidolin production together with the lactic acid production is responsible for the excellent anti- microbial activity against enterpathogenic organisms including E.coli, Klebsiella, pheumoniae, Salmonella typhimurium, Staphylococcus aures, Clostridium perfringens, Pseudomonas aeruginosa (green diarrhea), Shigella paradysenteriae ( New Castle), and against sporeformers. Further, it is active against polio virus (type 1).

 

Inhibition of pathogens by lactobacilli also is attributed to their alteration of pH through acid production. Because of their extensive fermentive capacity, lactic acid bacteria produce significant amounts of metabolic products including acetic, formic, and lactic acids, the inhibiting properties of which are well recognized.

 

Lactobacilli changes the oxidation-reduction potential through its production of metabolites. By making the environment less conducive for organisms requiring oxygen this action of the lactobacilli contributes to the overall inhibiting effect of these bacteria.

[just ask me]

thanks for the info ib ill have a good read