Overfly/Underfly

[Guest IB]

anybody who denies the advantage of overfly is deluding themselves, particularly at shorter races. IMO a race is split into stages .....the first is the liberation which in ypm is the slowest as the birds have to orientate.....next is the bulk of the fly home and finally the last few miles and the trap. the disadvantage for the short loft is that they have less distance to recover the time lost in the liberation phase. thus if 2 pigeons appear over the short loft and the first traps but the other flies on to a longer loft then,barring mishap, the second pigeon will allways win despite the fact that it is really only equal to the first.

 

secondly there is alot of rubbish spoken about fanciers being 'scared' of competition and how this is the death of our sport.....BUT clubs are essentially co-ops and if someone is let in that some members don't want....and they pack up as a result.... the club folds and no-one has a club to fly in...thus accelerating the decline. clubs have radius' to ensure that all their members have a geographical chance of winning. in the case quoted, if he is inside the radius, IMO a very good reason is needed for rejection...but if its outside then, the club has no case to answer

 

Don’t disagree with anything you’ve said except the wee bit I’ve highlighted in red. IMO it shows what most fancier’s consider to be overfly - the direct distance from shorter flying loft ‘Y’ to longer flying loft ‘Z’, line YZ. That’s a mistake, as overfly is the difference between the two loft’s flying distances from the same race point - ‘A’ – that’s the difference between lines AZ and AY, which is not the same as line YZ.

 

As I said in my previous post, the two pigeons have different lines to fly, AZ and AY. I doubt if loft ‘Y’ would be on loft ‘Z’s’ direct line of flight, so for me loft Z would likely come second, given that wind, hills valleys etc prevent the birds from flying ‘straight lines’ home , it is the bird which deviates least from the direct line home that is likely to record the highest velocity, and win.

[Guest Owen]

Mick,

I can not argue with that. Good birds are good birds and the essential skill is to know how to recognise them.

Cheers

[Diamond dave]

Doesnt the wind direction or strength make any difference to whether or not overfly becomes an advantage......?

 

D.D.

[Guest madpup]

Nationals are different from club racing , I think what your members are saying is that they don't want the competition in there club , as the new member would have greater advantage been at the back , especial on fly overs he'd be first drop at back then they'd have to give him overfly as well I can't think why clubs turn members down , they'll only join another club and help there coffers , are they frightened of the competition ?

 

 

Most races should be won at the front as most nationals are, to say someone has flyover and its a advantage is crazy, most races the birds dont get faster for flying more distance, I would much happyer at the front of the up north combine than the middle

[DJWa]

Most races should be won at the front as most nationals are, to say someone has flyover and its a advantage is crazy, most races the birds dont get faster for flying more distance, I would much happyer at the front of the up north combine than the middle

 

if birds dont clear a racepoint straight away say they take 10/20 minutes to clear

due to birds of prey ,overcast there are a number of reasons

then recalculate thier times with the 20 minutes going nowhere

then the further flying birds have a big advantage

 

if you are an early drop and say you get a bird at 12.00

then you see a bird going over head 5 minutes later travelling 5 miles further

if it maintains the same speed and traps well your beat

as the wasted time spent at the racepoint all counts into the equasion

[OLDYELLOW]

Most races should be won at the front as most nationals are, to say someone has flyover and its a advantage is crazy, most races the birds dont get faster for flying more distance, I would much happyer at the front of the up north combine than the middle

Rather be Seaham harbour or Great Ayton , than first drops into Lofus and Skiningrove

[Guest madpup]

Rather be Seaham harbour or Great Ayton , than first drops into Lofus and Skiningrove

 

 

 

 

eh there is more combine winners came out of loftus and skiningrove than any other place in the combine!! is it that they have better birds and that there better pigeon men than say the lads up at berwick, cause the lads up at the borders are very rairly in the up north combine result, but are always at the top in the scottish result

[dal2]

eh there is more combine winners came out of loftus and skiningrove than any other place in the combine!! is it that they have better birds and that there better pigeon men than say the lads up at berwick, cause the lads up at the borders are very rairly in the up north combine result, but are always at the top in the scottish result

 

Easterlry race points help in SNFC/SNRPC compared too UNC races

[DJWa]

eh there is more combine winners came out of loftus and skiningrove than any other place in the combine!! is it that they have better birds and that there better pigeon men than say the lads up at berwick, cause the lads up at the borders are very rairly in the up north combine result, but are always at the top in the scottish result

the further you go raceing the more distance comes into it

as birds tire the further they go and slow down in most cases also

it depends on weather conditions wind, rain etc

im speaking about 50 to 200 miles further not 2 or 3 miles

[Guest madpup]

Easterlry race points help in SNFC/SNRPC compared too UNC races

eh so why noy are the lads in inverness or glasgow always winning up north in the nationals, of course loft location has a lot to do with it, I bet u anymoney u put the top 5 lofts say in Lanarkshire down the borders and in a couple of years u would have a national winner.

[Guest madpup]

the further you go raceing the more distance comes into it

as birds tire the further they go and slow down in most cases also

it depends on weather conditions wind, rain etc

im speaking about 50 to 200 miles further not 2 or 3 miles

 

 

I agree thats my point I know lads have won nationals from the top to the bottom of our combine but on average, its better to be at the front..

[dal2]

eh so why noy are the lads in inverness or glasgow always winning up north in the nationals, of course loft location has a lot to do with it, I bet u anymoney u put the top 5 lofts say in Lanarkshire down the borders and in a couple of years u would have a national winner.

 

\\often tried but very hard to accomplish! it is often argued on here about overfly and it always finishes up with the bird bein the answer. Top doos win anywhere but many other things come into consideration. Wind,drag,location but race point also has a big say. The further east you push the race point then obviously the easterly fanciers have an advantage due to wind and terrain, other members on her will benefit from better measurements??? Never be a level playin field but bein the shortest flier doesnt mean the best results.

[Guest madpup]

\\often tried but very hard to accomplish! it is often argued on here about overfly and it always finishes up with the bird bein the answer. Top doos win anywhere but many other things come into consideration. Wind,drag,location but race point also has a big say. The further east you push the race point then obviously the easterly fanciers have an advantage due to wind and terrain, other members on her will benefit from better measurements??? Never be a level playin field but bein the shortest flier doesnt mean the best results.

 

 

I Agree, I know the weather wind and other things make the race but on average the lads at the front have an advatage, i know if the winds up there ass it give further flyers a better chance, but all u have to do is look at young bird nationl results in the up north combine and 7 out of 10 races the lads at the front do much better same in the scotts nationals.I know it will never be a level playing field and I am not complaining, just pointing out a fact....

[dal2]

I Agree, I know the weather wind and other things make the race but on average the lads at the front have an advatage, i know if the winds up there ass it give further flyers a better chance, but all u have to do is look at young bird nationl results in the up north combine and 7 out of 10 races the lads at the front do much better same in the scotts nationals.I know it will never be a level playing field and I am not complaining, just pointing out a fact....

 

Absolutely but even more advantageous is living on the east coast wae races from the east of france and now BELGIUM!!! my arguement is more position of race point rather than overflight. Good doos will win(at distance)anywhere within reason. I am quite sure that there are members on here reading this thinkin that(quite rightly) their birds will beat me in the south regardless of overflight?

[OLDYELLOW]

eh there is more combine winners came out of loftus and skiningrove than any other place in the combine!! is it that they have better birds and that there better pigeon men than say the lads up at berwick, cause the lads up at the borders are very rairly in the up north combine result, but are always at the top in the scottish result

Chapman of seaham harbour few seasons ago and if you go back a bit further look at Mark Hartley of Great Ayton , then further back look at Marsay and Taylors results great positions Also friend of M and T used to watch there birds first batch would fly over few minutes later clock in topped UNC unbelievable but true

[Guest spin cycle]

Don’t disagree with anything you’ve said except the wee bit I’ve highlighted in red. IMO it shows what most fancier’s consider to be overfly - the direct distance from shorter flying loft ‘Y’ to longer flying loft ‘Z’, line YZ. That’s a mistake, as overfly is the difference between the two loft’s flying distances from the same race point - ‘A’ – that’s the difference between lines AZ and AY, which is not the same as line YZ.

 

As I said in my previous post, the two pigeons have different lines to fly, AZ and AY. I doubt if loft ‘Y’ would be on loft ‘Z’s’ direct line of flight, so for me loft Z would likely come second, given that wind, hills valleys etc prevent the birds from flying ‘straight lines’ home , it is the bird which deviates least from the direct line home that is likely to record the highest velocity, and win.

 

 

you are right about lines...but i'm pretty sure it has happened in the past that a kit has arrived low over my loft some trapped and others didn't...i was beaten by a pigeon timed 8 mins later .

 

 

 

i was under the impression that this thread was about over/underfly....not location or wind...which IMO have a much bigger impact but is not the topic.

[Guest madpup]

Chapman of seaham harbour few seasons ago and if you go back a bit further look at Mark Hartley of Great Ayton , then further back look at Marsay and Taylors results great positions Also friend of M and T used to watch there birds first batch would fly over few minutes later clock in topped UNC unbelievable but true

 

 

I am lost with this comment m8 , dont know what u mean by it?

[DJWa]

I am lost with this comment m8 , dont know what u mean by it?

i think marks saying that the winner can come out of 2nd or 3rd batch

you might have 100 birds go overhead flying further than you

but yours turns up 5 mins later and wins the race

because the birds start to slow with distance

 

could be wrong like

[OLDYELLOW]

I am lost with this comment m8 , dont know what u mean by it?

Just my preference of where I'd like to be in unc by the results of the fanciers names I've given , OK unc may have been topped more in Skinningrove or Loftus ,as said a batch could go over then up to 15 minutes later Marsey and Taylor would clock and top the UNC , last bird I can remember was there Bourge winner Wildermesch hen topped the UNC , Great flyers but also great positions , most unc guys say birds come up A19 unlike the one eyed birds on the coast to me Seaham Harbour or Great Ayton would be my preference To the first drops of Skinningrove and Lofus , during racing most of the nehu strays i get in are lost on the coast;)They may be the first drops but they certainly don't have the drag imo , Better to be sitting near A19 jmo

[Guest spin cycle]

i would have thought leading birds would ,in general, speed up.. albeit slightly?? surely thats why you try to train in line of flight? my thinking is that the first birds must be well motivated to be out front and when they start to recognise the country they are flying over it encourages them

[ovy1255]

all loft positions must be looked at on its merits and the weather on race day taken into account-the reason i say this is because i fly on the top of the highest point in the north east and if the birds are flying into a head wind and are low the first drop birds trap and mine have to start climbing -but on a good day the bids can be in the heavens and being on top of a hill doesnt seem to matter.raceing on a midweek with only 12 members 6 bird limit then a small bunch are liberated and flyers out west do do well on an east wind but when the wind turns they rarely score so wind does play its part.

pigeons have astounded people in the past and will still do so in the future.

but i win every week untill i go to the club but in that hour untill i go i feel great that my birds homed and love it if when i go to the club i have full returns-if this stops i will pack it in but this year i have an added interest as the first grandbairn has started to take an interest in grandads pigeons.