Inbreeding

[Elvan Willgrass]

Does anyone no of any good books or CDs Videos on inbreeding and line breeding and if anyone can tell me the best way to do it I would be obliged. I have the birds for the distance but how do I keep them as they are now.

[Guest pigeon82]

i think you wud have to cross gud breed in with them then aunty to nephew or nephew to grand dam that type of way to much inbreeding you will see there end flight get shorter than the next one in jmo

[alex young]

Get yourself a copy of OLD HANDS, The Strain Makers from Murray and Mills, £10-30p. really good book.atb.

[Guest Hjaltland]

Have you been racing pigeons for long? are you really at a stage where you need to do this? Sorry cant direct you to any books on the subject but have a look at this: My link

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Old hands Strain makers is an interesting read

 

I used to love reading his stuff-the guys a LEGEND

 

A lot of its probably considered a bit dated by many mind you but you'll get something out of it i'd imagine.On top of that he's pretty funny

[just ask me]

probably the best book ever written on this subject and all matters involving breeding is victor vansalen's masters of breeding and racing

 

very hard to get and it costs a bomb as its not in print anymore but if u know anyone that will lend it to you i don't think you will go far wrong with this book

 

there a lot of reading in it

[Elvan Willgrass]

Thanks for the replies, I have raced pigeons since the 1950s as a school boy but only seriously for the last twenty years and yes I need to try and keep what I have. I fly in a couple of distance club sending a maximum of four birds and they do OK. If possible I was not wanting to cross others into them yet. I will follow the leads sent to me and see if I can work it out.

[Guest dodgydaz]

just checked it out and that victor vansalens book at adebooks.co.uk is currently on sale at £299 + p&p on top of that,

must be good read or its written in gold lettering

[budgie]

Speak to Wee Endflight he has mastered the Art of In-Breeding and it will only cost you £1.99 & bag Soor Plooms.6 S.N.F.C tickets last 2 races ???

[Guest Hjaltland]

I have a copy of VanSalen's'masters of breeding and racing' .. you can have it for £400 !! a great book, well worth the price!!

[just ask me]

just checked it out and that victor vansalens book at adebooks.co.uk is currently on sale at £299 + p&p on top of that,

must be good read or its written in gold lettering

belive it or not that cheaper than most ive seen

[Elvan Willgrass]

Apart from the Old Hand book I did not think the prices were as high as these so I will have to decline the offers.

[just ask me]

keep your eye on e bay sometimes there is a right bargain to be got you can pick up books way under the expected amount

[Roland]

Tis a foolhardy fallacy unless you know what you are doing and why and just what you hope to achieve. I mean unless the 'Pigeon' you want to reproduce is an absolute belter, top draw, then why in breed? You will only breed inferior stuff etc.

Remember you can’t put in what’s not there to begin with. Only via an introduction is that possible.

Line breeding is simpler and more effective that hold the family traits with out cross between 2 - 3 proven families of birds.

Now in nature it is very rare, indeed mostly only through unseen circumstance that there is any inbreeding in any animal and bird, to good effect, as this will prove.

Now when you have read this http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/275/1635/703.full and understand it ... I have some more too in line breeding which is reality.

Simply you have a great Cock bird (Or hen / or both) that has a few Fed wins or better to it's name. You then mate a related bird, daughter, Mother etc. etc or what ever. Then you place these youngsters in a stock loft and bring in a cross to add vigour etc. to the off spring for racing. The off spring aren't to race... it is the outcrosses from them that race.

So it is incest breeding for stock and outcross breeding for the race team.

Remember it seems that these are the youngsters filling up the churches and cluttering the pavements. Losses are tremendous too unless done right. Madness etc. deformities etc. etc. are also a part and partial to the game. So yes 'Names' have bred great birds - never tell you how many are lost, nor what percentage. But a very many youngster are bred from this system.

Good luck matey.

[Guest youngboy]

if you look up austrialianjournal something like that a topic by Basil gosman really good read up on inbreeding and strain making

[clayton moore]

One of todays major strains is so inbred as to render it most unsavory.However this particular colony has as a result of inbreeding become the best outcross available in modern times.This family is the Soontjen strain.The base pigeon Tom is the triangle leading off like the heart in an upside down apex. The Staff van Reets of Mardons are heavily inbred to the cock Toey.Also most of the pgeons at the Luella pigeon World are heavily inbrede although Louis told me the reasoning behind this.As for the churches and train stations being full of these inbreds thats unproven conjecture. They could very easily be from over crowded poorly ventilated lofts.George Busschaert inbred he wanted lots of children from certain individuals.

[Roland]

However this particular colony has as a result of inbreeding become the best outcross available in modern times. The cock Toey.... The base pigeon Tom. Yes Clayton no ones says otherwise. But one must have birds way above the norm 'Good Homer' as a Foundation' I believe.

[Guest Freebird]

Here are a couple of links you may find usefull.

 

http://www.the-spa.com/~paulmaywald/linbreedingcharts.pdf

 

http://www.the-spa.com/~paulmaywald/linebreeding.htm

[clayton moore]

The way i see it the whole point of inbreeding is the main pigeon or good homer as you put it.Is the catalist your aim is recreate him in his own likeness.Some peaple swear by mother to son yet the genes in this pairing are doomed to fail.HOWEVER grandam to grandson is perfect.The male side ie father dtr grandfather grandaughter brilliant.WHY?.You can create the model you set out to create and he she be useless.

[Guest Owen]

There are many ways to approach the breeding of quality pigeons or other animals for that matter. Racing pigeons and Racing horses have one important thing in common. It is impossible to see where you are with the naked eye. Measurement of progress is fraught with difficulty. Racing pigeons have a further difficulty in enabling the breeder to see whether progess is being made or not. We are forced to carry out the progeny testing, just as the horse people are, but we have to contend with adverse environmental pressures. Wires, hawks/falcons, weather, all have there effects on results. Long distance fanciers will find the producing of the evidence we need is even more of a challenge because as the distance increases the environment will become more and more of a challenge.

I agree with the previous writers when they suggested that the Strain Makers book is a very good starting point. The one important point in the book that is often missed is the importance of progeny testing. Just pairing reletives together is not it. The individuals used as part of a breeding programme must be of the right quality, relating to the objectives of the breeding. I have worked out my own methods of breeding by employing a bull system, which involves one good cock being paired to around ten hens. The first thing I noticed by doing this was that some youngsters from a cock paired to a certain hen were not good enough. Whereas the same cock would produce cracking youngsters from a differant hen. The interesting thing is that I have never been able to see which are the good ones and which are the poor ones. The other notable point is that sometimes the same hen would produce excellent youngsters from a differant good cock.

[clayton moore]

Well put.I only ever in my life had 1 hen that bred winners in every nest.Everything off her scored but a winner was in every nest.

[Roland]

Well said Owen. And having to prove the abiliy and qualities the youngsters pocess is all impotant - otherwise no point and everything is chance and willy nilly. So I still say it is foolhardy to Inbreed unless the Hen - Cock bird is something special and well proven. One can have generations of birds like pees in the pod.... but if beaten by a paper bag on a wind assisted day, then personally I believe it is a waste of time.

I tend to see, whether it was just more noriceable to me or not I don't know. But going back to the 'Strain makers' as such, it was inevertably the introduction, or out cross that made the 'Nmae'. Correct me in I'm wrong of course. Good at relating parts and the essences of what I read read... not always in the order they were lol, But was intrigued by the birds Jansenns Old man had introduced, many by his sons that made a 'Name'.

 

By the way it is good to see both Owen and Clayton back and posting. This site certainly needs more like you two ... indeed may I say every site lol.

[Guest IB]

This thread reminded me of a book that's never been published and so not widely available to fanciers. Steven van Breemen translated into English 'The Art of Breeding' by the Hungarian geneticist, animal breeder & pigeon fancier Professor Alfons Anker, and made it available in chapters in his internet magazine 'Winning'. On double-checking my facts, I've also discovered Steven's magazine ends 1st July, and he's told me the only way to get this internet book is to subscribe and print it off. Doesn't leave much time.

 

I've mentioned 'the art of breeding' a few times on the forum over the years and in my opinion is by far the best available work on breeding. Anker was interested in breeding for a purpose, he is credited with breeding the modern pig (for the table) and he used the same techniques to create his own family of pigeons. His was also interested in thoroughbred race horses and he analyses many famous race horses' breeding as examples of different breeding techniques. He also mentions the base of many of the old pigeon strains. He seems to have known them.

[Ed Bourque]

sounds to me like you have a good HEN not the cock.

[bullcock]

have a look at this pedigree SIRE

SIRE NO1 STOCK COCK

1051

FED TOPPER DAM

NO1 STOCK HEN

SIRE FULL BOR / SIST

SON OF FAITH SIRE

DAM NO1 STOCK COCK

3132

HALF BOR /SIST 11TH OPEN NAT NEWBURY DAM

NO1 STOCK HEN

1049

SIRE 3 X 1STS

SIRE

SIRE NO1 STOCK COCK

1050

FED TOPPER DAM

NO1 STOCK HEN

DAM FULL BOR / SIST

DTR OF FAITH

SIRE

NOTE :- DAM NO1 STOCK COCK

1050 & 1051 ARE NEST MATES 3132

11TH OPEN NAT NEWBURY DAM

NO1 STOCK HEN

SU08R1049 IS VERY INBRED AND BRED A COCK TO WIN 3 X 1STS

WITH AN UNRELATED BIRD.