Non Racing Fanciers Selling Pigeons

[frank-123]

guess most  breeding studs are the same buy a winners sons daughters..etc then breed and sell see what they can do for others

 

think a good reputation of the seller means more than racing stud or breeding stud method in my opinion  i trust you stuart so i would buy from you and raymond

whether you raced or only bred because i know its a gamble what ever way you buy them

although racers would have less of a gamble

[Guest strapper]

i think there are many studs today that provide a good deal of good birds, just because a stud doesnt race doesnt mean it hasnt the cream of  that strain it sells.

and also doesnt mean because a stud sells and races it has the cream...i believe there is many non racing and racing lofts  that breed top birds and its the individual that has to make their purchases work for them.

how many are bought at louella each year but how many make the grade...and theres no doubting that louella has some very top birds there.

i have alun mauls blood lines here off carl powell who himself scored national wise bred off aluns birds.

 

[BLACK W F]

all roads lead to Rome so they say some of the studs give real good deals and fanciers the chance to get top class bloodlines for reasonable prices but have no guarantee to win or breed winners

the racing lofts that sell give you the chance to buy off their top birds  big winners and proven producers you buy their birds but you do not get them  

looking at Stuart and Raymonds  birds for example  and not having handled their distance family   i would say if i where buying i would be knocking on thier door  they look the part and have the performances to match  i do not think you could get better for the prices they charge

cheers Alan

[Guest]

IV NEVER READ SO MUCH RUBBISH,IT TAKES A BETTER MAN TO BREED A GOOD RACING PIGEON THAN A MAN THAT CAN RACE ONE .BREEDING IS GOLD RACING IS SILVER IN MY EYES.IF YOU HAVENT GOT THE STOCK YOU WONT WIN ANY WAY.MY BEST PAIR OF BIRDS CAME FROM A NON RACING LOFT THIS PAIR HAVE BRED ME BIRDS TO WIN OVER £7000 IN A VERY SHORT TIME.

 

 

 

[Merlin]

 

Very good post,would like to reiterate what Albear has stated regarding Alun Maull an absolute master pigeon fancier,when racing ,and now at producing winners,but in answer to original question,buying in new birds is at best 50/50 from any source

its when it turn out the buyer is pleased with them,then you go back again,or move on elsewhere, expect a non racer will offer all birds for sale,a racing fancier,which I am one, gonna keep what I think are best prospects,its human nature,and also as Amanda says a lot is down to the calibre of fancier who gets them.

[swilcox]

I think this is good, veiws from both sides of the fence, its a proper discussion, lets kept it going and it doesnt need to be personnel.

[swilcox]

I remember Derek Pedley telling me once, "every year i have fanciers knocking on my door telling me they have purchased birds from this man and that man and that they were all crap and could they buy some of mine" Derek said "why they leave i turn to my wife and say i will be that man next year and my birds will be crap to the next guy he visits"

[Silverdale Lofts]

I remember Derek Pedley telling me once, "every year i have fanciers knocking on my door telling me they have purchased birds from this man and that man and that they were all crap and could they buy some of mine" Derek said "why they leave i turn to my wife and say i will be that man next year and my birds will be crap to the next guy he visits"

 

How true you can buy the best but you dont get the man

[Guest]

i think there are many studs today that provide a good deal of good birds, just because a stud doesnt race doesnt mean it hasnt the cream of  that strain it sells.

and also doesnt mean because a stud sells and races it has the cream...i believe there is many non racing and racing lofts  that breed top birds and its the individual that has to make their purchases work for them.

how many are bought at louella each year but how many make the grade...and theres no doubting that louella has some very top birds there.

i have alun mauls blood lines here off carl powell who himself scored national wise bred off aluns birds.

 

well said

[Guest slugmonkey]

there are bloodlines that are prepotent and there are those that are not, when buying from a nonracer you are buying the reputation of the breeder as well as the bird, I went to a large show here recently and they of course had an auction there were some really nice birds there but stuck in among all of the Figo and Kannibal and imports were some birds from a local guy this guy is part of the problem he is an A.U. show judge and does not race but when asked about the birds he told everyone they were a rough and tumble more durable type of bird that comes home the problem here is that this guy is a pigeon exhibitor NOT a racer earlier in the year he went to another guys loft and help him cull some birds this guy was overcrowded and needed to lose some birds and as many as he had I dont think it mattered what he got rid of as long as he got rid of some BUT I am sure he lost some very good birds due to the fact they werent PRETTY my point is this be careful who you are getting advice from just becase a guy is an expert dosent mean he knows anything!

For my money give me birds from a guy that is racing and winning and preferably a guy with bad loft position who has few birds and yet still manages to score consistently.

   If the birds dont home it's their fault if they dont race it is mine !!

[tomm1e]

My view is the best way to obtain potentially good pigeons

is to buy birds from a winning family of pigeons - and it doesn't

make any difference if the source is a racing loft or a non-racing

stud.

 

A winning family is one in which the winning genes occur

generation after generation - in sons, daughters, uncles, cousins,

half brothers, great aunts; you name it.

 

The best way to keep such a winning line going is by inbreeding

around the champions, and some studs do this well. It doesn't mean

that every pigeon bred will be a champion but a high proportion will

have the right genes and could be champions if managed well.

 

  

 

 

[Guest chrisss]

" If the birds dont home it's their fault if they dont race it is mine !!" does the origin of the birds really matter,jim biss once said to me that there are guys who could buy a million pounds worth of pigeons and get no where,yet other guys could get a pair from their local town centre,and breed a winner

[just ask me]

well this is a tricky question i personally would go to a racing loft although i did get a few at a stud to top me up when i started they did int do to bad either what i look for is results and even they can be misleading for e.g  lets say u had a 1first from 200 pigeons a nice result and on the other hand u had a result say 6th from 1000 pigeons know which one id rather have another is location ill use my own example this time im living 15 to 20 mile in the location in my fed with about 3/4 of the birds going straight up the coast to the good location well on a regular basis most weeks actually im in the top 10 if not top 5 with no one else in my area no where near the top 20 now which pigeon would u rather have i think the whole thing is doing your home work and finding out where the fancier is living and most importantly buy what are winning today don't think u can pull back a line of pigeons 10 years and say i can get that from them again don't think it can be done well not for us mere mortals anyway

[just ask me]

" If the birds dont home it's their fault if they dont race it is mine !!" does the origin of the birds really matter,jim biss once said to me that there are guys who could buy a million pounds worth of pigeons and get no where,yet other guys could get a pair from their local town centre,and breed a winner

 

origin is one of the most important things as if u buy winning bloodlines u are in giving your self a massive chance in achieving your goals as what Jim said is true look at this way you could give a horse trainer what aidan o Brien has at his stud and he wouldn't win very little

work it the other way round u give aidan o Brien a medium horse he get results out of that horse that many pll wouldn't get another important point is is if a fancier is putting massive amounts of work into pigeons and has thousands of pounds of worth of lofts can u do the  same  if not can u achieve what he is

[pigeonscout]

Hi Albear yes there are some good guys and if you look at the shear size of investment put in by Frank Sheader, Premier Stud etc then they deserve there success and i know both of these guys pull there wieght.

 

Racing is still king and its the pilar off success and i think it should be everyones priority.

 

Stuart

I would have said breeding is king, a stud has to be breeding winners for other fanciers and to do that it needs a loft full of good breeding pairs not winning birds.

Racing studs or none racing studs it makes no difference good birds and bad birds can be found in both.

A racing stud or none racing stud should be judged on the performances other fanciers are having with their birds and not by its own racing results. Many racing studs race 100 + birds into a good location but their birds do not do so well when they are raced by other fanciers.

You also have to take into account the strike rate, some studs sell 1000's and can only boast 10 winners at the end of the year.

Intelligent  none racing studs owners have the young birds from their breeding pairs tested by some of the top racing lofts both here and on continent before they go onto the open market. This gives them a better idea of how good they are as the birds are racing against already winning family's of birds.

There are some fantastic birds to be had in none racing studs two that come to mind are Peter Fox of syndicate lofts and John Gerard, the birds from these two small studs are winning all over the world at the very highest level.

 

[Guest]

Interesting topic. I've experienced purchases from both, sometimes i've had good birds, sometimes not. Sometimes i've been done. Personally now though, i would go to a performance loft and try to obtain what i wanted from them. I would be extremely wary, in fact i would steer well clear, of non-racing lofts that hype themselves up to be bigger and better than they actually are. If the birds were as good as the self promoting hype, then they wouldn't need the hype in the first place! I suppose the answer is in getting to know who you are buying from first, doing your homework, before you empty your wallet, or should i be saying before having your wallet emptied!  

 

Very interesting thread!

[jimmy white]

if racing pigeons now, i would prefer to buy direct from proven winners or prize winners    whether it be studs or racing fanciers ,,, but not the ones that are umpteen generations down from winners [off course you can still be lucky with these , as pigeons is a strange game , there are never any  gaurentees  that ,you will win with any pigeon , or any so- called breed  

[pigeonscout]

if racing pigeons now, i would prefer to buy direct from proven winners or prize winners    whether it be studs or racing fanciers ,,, but not the ones that are umpteen generations down from winners [off course you can still be lucky with these , as pigeons is a strange game , there are never any  gaurentees  that ,you will win with any pigeon , or any so- called breed  

 

Jimmy would it not be better to buy from proven breeders?

 

[gangster]

 

Jimmy would it not be better to buy from proven breeders?

 

ARE YOU AN AGENT FOR JOHN GERARD SIR!!!

[little sam]

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE RESULTS, BUT MOST STUDS GET RESULTS FROM THERE BUYERS,  

[pigeonscout]

 

Jimmy would it not be better to buy from proven breeders?

I take that question back as it is like asking what comes first the chicken or the egg.

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

ARE YOU AN AGENT FOR JOHN GERARD SIR!!!

Your having a laugh Mick

 

 

[Guest]

The issue is often one of cost. There are studs that have not raced for years I would buy from because they have bought in the very best, not just the best pedigrees. I believe what we are talking about here is the ability to select, if  you have a wo/man who has that ability and the wallet to back it up, then you have the champion, not just a moneybags but a stock wo/man too. Then you have men who have great wealth; and occasionally have great birds by the law of averages. And finally you have the wo/man who is a great stock person and is a potential strain maker if they can get the break of picking up a couple of pairs of quality birds.

What we all want is to find the best source as quickly as possible to get these quality birds and I don't think anyone would be bothered whether it was a recer or not. However more often than not you cut the risk by going to a racing man who has worked out in many cases his est breeders.

But is that necessarily an advantage, let me play devil's advocate. The successful racing stud is going to know its best breeders and to get the best birds its going to cost , the further down the price list you get the less chance of you geeting even anything half decent (except of course virgin stock, but even then peers of these will more than likely as not have indicated any ability).

But what of the non racing stud well they tend to go simply on the nearer to the tree the costly and the further down the cheaper. Of course the further away the more you dilute. However the source of all these birds is close to the head of the well, the chances are there that some of these more distant relatives will stil have these winning genes.

And sometimes I think you can pick up some real bargains, Henry and I picked up two hens from massarella in their redundant strock, one bred a 1st fed the other a 10 yo a 10th open BBC. Mind you we did have a Bob Mcdonald hen that was uperb on loan that we could have bought, unfortunately Henry didn't rate her and we had an agreement no bird to come in unless we both agreed, she bred my good yealing cock 17.

Louella is always mentioned and  i went a few weeks back to see if I could pick up a couple of quality jan aarden hens, I actually picked up 3, The first I picked I thought was fantastic in good nick i passed it to a steward to hold for me whilst I loked at another one. when he gve me it back he looked at me a bit wierd. I asked him what he thought, he said have you seen its age, it was 1996!!! Well I bought her. I also bought two pair of Lefebres they knocked my socks off 7/8 year olds. As good as anything in my loft, we shall see? My aim now is to win 1st section tarbes and to create a strain from these lowly beginings, from stock not raced, I'll come back to this thread in 5 years and let you know :-/ ;D ;D

[Guest]

;)interesting to see you chose Lefebre Dhaneans ALLBEAR . an old clubmate of mine went on a coach trip to Louellas 5 or so years ago and had his£100 in pocket , bought 6 youngsters laffy daffy ,because thats what the guy in front of him chose ?? the other fancier turned one down ,it was offered to my old clubmate . he turned down ,on the grounds not good enough for the other guy ,i dont want it . Louellas gave it to him , 7 for the price of six ? he raced them . 6 went down and one stayed and won as yb ,yearling ,2 yr old etc etc , now in his stock loft breeding winners year after year . and yes it was the freebie /                   andy

[Tony C]

I think its how you look at breeding and what you believe in, if you believe in pairing best to best you'll more than likely go to the person that races. If you go for line breeding/ in breeding you'll search out the blood your after irrespective whether the loft races or not.