United We Fly "UWF"

[tyson]

n.s.p.r.p. NATIONAL SOCIETY PROTECTION RACING PIGEONS...

[Roland]

n.s.p.r.p. NATIONAL SOCIETY PROTECTION RACING PIGEONS...

 

Tyson, I feel we need to delete Racing. This is because very many other pigeon keepers keep pigeons of various kinds. Rollers / Tublers / Tipplers / pouters etc. etc. So then we would be left with National Society protecting pigeons.

N.SP.P.

[Guest spin cycle]

whats wrong with 'protect our birds'....as in both 'wild' and 'kept'...promoted as if you like birds help us to highlight the hawk problems ? mentioning pigeons will just turn joe public off. JMO...call it what you like i'll still support

[tyson]

roland the reason i put in racing is i feel it is the racing pigeon that is being hit the hardest as every week they are running the gauntlet coming home from the race points

[Guest]

whats wrong with 'protect our birds'....as in both 'wild' and 'kept'...promoted as if you like birds help us to highlight the hawk problems ? mentioning pigeons will just turn joe public off. JMO...call it what you like i'll still support

 

I tend to agree  

[Guest]

whats wrong with 'protect our birds'....as in both 'wild' and 'kept'...promoted as if you like birds help us to highlight the hawk problems ? mentioning pigeons will just turn joe public off. JMO...call it what you like i'll still support

 

There is nothing wrong with the name in principle but in practice your up against it PR wise because the RSPB does just that and have the PR down to a T.   The campaign isn't to target 'joe public' is it?  Isn't this about us all as pigeon fanciers making a concerted effort to get something done about pigeons?  Agree on the fact that no matter what you call this campaign or any others that are targeted to look after our interests it will have my full support as well.

 

[Roland]

roland the reason i put in racing is i feel it is the racing pigeon that is being hit the hardest as every week they are running the gauntlet coming home from the race points

 

Agreed Tyson, but so are them other keeper of pigeons, just like us.... in fact the Roller possibly the most.

I certainly wasn't knocking your post or thoughts, for they are perfectly sound sense. However on a personal note, I'd like the other kind of pigeon fanciers to also be apart of us, and dip in their pockets etc. I just feel that via putting in 'Racing' we could well allienate them, and that is the last thing we need... to allienate any one.

[Guest numpty01]

no keven i thought rolands idea was to get public as well as fanciers support with just fanciers i dont think it will grow but get public then off you go big time so its open i suppose

[Guest]

 

Agreed Tyson, but so are them other keeper of pigeons, just like us.... in fact the Roller possibly the most.

I certainly wasn't knocking your post or thoughts, for they are perfectly sound sense. However on a personal note, I'd like the other kind of pigeon fanciers to also be apart of us, and dip in their pockets etc. I just feel that via putting in 'Racing' we could well allienate them, and that is the last thing we need... to allienate any one.

Couldn't agree more Roland, no matter what niche your in, from racing birds to fancy birds they are all subject to the same thing, you only have to do a search through the forum to hear tale of percy in the back yard there are so many of them.   One excellent thing to come from all this is we're actually discussing the issue not fighting each other and this can only be a good thing.  

 

[Guest bigda]

how do you address the problem,  ours is the peregrine it will only kill  in the air, racing pigeons  perfect   food  source for the peregrine, Joe publics problem  how  do you  tell them to  rid magpies, crows.  the sparrowhawk is the small bird killer,  but magpies wipe out nests every year  of all the young birds,  should we every have a hard winter again that will be the end  for the remaining pairs of blackbirds,    and sparrows, as they are not getting allowed to rear there young, with that said our own agenda  is better dealt with our self,   as the rspb will only say the reason for the decline is  due to the demand for housing

and the people that want the rural land as it is  don't even want  a rooster to craw they want to gag it so do whats best for the pigeon man  first

 

[Roland]

Further, personally I feel as I said why I chose P.O.B. to kick start us of.

I also like the N.S.P.P. because I feel it sound National, which it is, and most of the public / bird lovers we remember it easier. Could be Nation too I suppose N.P.O.B. But that leaves out Society, which may mean something to Joe Bloggs.

Like Clinically Tested, It means absolutely nothing at all. You / me, can  - like the advertisers do - call any room a clinic.... maybe it would want a microscope or a tape measure, whatever. Then I do a sample take. No more than a meaningless thing three times and say 'Clinically Tested'.

Now National Society maybe good.

Time now is of the essence. I'm absolutely shagged out and having a early night for a change. Will take the general consensus tomorrow and put it for the committee to vote on.

[Turk]

The R.S.P.B HAVE DECADES OF PROMOTING PERCY AND OTHER BIRDS OF PREY ,with there new species introductions now nearly on a yearly basis ,goshawks ,sparrowhawks ,sea eagles,red kites and percy and the like .They keep blaming land owners and pigeon fanciers to the public and have done for years .

 

i would like to see a campaign of B.B.S.K ,BRITAIN"S BIGGEST SERIAL KILLERS,WITH PERCY OR A SPARROWHAWK SAT ON TOP OF A PILE OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD BIRDS,THATS THE WAY TO HIT JOE PUBLIC .A PICTURE SAYS A THOUSAND WORDS SO THEY SAY .

 

or a nice picture of the garden with plenty of bird feeders placed around with dead birds all over the garden and the title "would you bring home a serial killer "with a sparrow hawk sat on the table.with a couple feeding the birds saying "do you think global warming is killing the birds.

im sure someone who is good at photo shooting pictures could bring the picture to life .

who would publish such pictures i do not know .

 

but fighting the r.s.p.b and natural england needs the full backing of the R.P.R.A. AND ALL OTHERS to try and resolve this issue ,because fanciers have been asking for years and they do nothing. :-/

[Guest]

Finding the name that will help people relate to our plight is essential and I do agree with Jargre and others we should not hide away the fact that we are interested in the plight of our birds.

What do we need from this campaign what are our objectives, Roly may I suggest you look at this prior to settling on the campaign name.

Objective

What are our objectives, I think this forum can come up with many and then Roly you and your committee need to sift through them and identify the key ones, the ones to concentrate on. Most campaigns fail because from the start they have not identified what they are trying to do. I know this sounds straight forward many of you will be reading this and saying we know what we want to achieve, the ability to control hawks i.e. defend our birds. But already it has been sent different ways, some have suggested make little emphasis on racing pigeons, because we will get little support, others say we should include all types of pigeons and the SOS campaign for example tried to camouflage our aims by using the plight of the songbird. And then again does this campaign need to look at improving our image at the same time. I don’t know this is where discussion may find the answer.  But discussion is important an Roly I think if this is to be a serious campaign, the discussion needs to be widened we need the input of the best thinkers available and the experience of those that have tried to mount and failed such campaigns in the past.

Coming back to objectives, what could they be, some of these will never happen but they are objectives that could be set.

1 Cull of all Hawks

2 Cull of sparrowhawks only

3 Automatic moving of higher level hawks from pigeon loft environment

4 Populating the UK with Eagle Owls

5 The use of traps to capture Hawks and resettlement

6 Racing Pigeons listed as a protected species.

7 Increase in song birds

8 Improve public perception of pigeon racing

9 Create an education program promoting racing pigeons and the benefits they have brought society

10 A fund set up to help new starters

11 Use of the awards for all scheme for introducing new fanciers in to the sport

12 The reorganisation and restructuring of the sport in the UK

13 The unification of all unions under one organisation removal of nationalistic prejudice

14 The ability to defend our pigeons in our own environment from attacks by predators.

That list is off the top of my head as I type this I am sure I have missed many objectives.

Achieving our objectives

How are we going to achieve them, well I don’t think you can set the how until we set our objectives.  However approach is something to consider; me well at times my approach can be very abrasive, as many will have seen on the internet the past 10 years on various sites at times I get quite annoyed. Not a quality required of those who will be fronting this campaign, however there must be balance. It is importance that there is honesty and one of my characteristics is that I will tell you if I think you are peeing in the wind or talking up your backside. And I understand that I may be wrong but the campaign must always be honest direct but have tact. The best way I can describe what I mean is an analogy. I see on Chat when I looked earlier, Bilco making mention of a meeting chaired by Taffy Bowen 20 years ago, where Taffy was very conciliatory saying we must use and talk to all the bodies; and then saying today we need direct action, (the subject was using salt and goose grease to deter Percy). That post reminded me of the miner’s strikes and the difference between the approach of two leaders, Joe Gormley and Arthur Scargill.

Back in the early 70’s I was involved in the Miner’s strike a member of the NUM white collar section of the union. During that strike we had power cuts blackouts and we had a leader whose catch phrase was ‘we’re going to negotiate’. We had public sympathy on our side. Compare that to the last strike and Scargill, he ostracised public support and from a personal point of view did as much as Thatcher to destroy the coal industry. His objective should have been exactly the same as Gormley but public perception was that his objective was to bring down the Tory government, a valid objective for a trade union, not really (though I have no doubt there will be those that believe so). What else was different well the planning and method of Gormley and Scargill. In the 70’s we want on strike in winter, coal stocks were low and most importantly it was a democratic decision by the miners to go out on strike. Scargill’s was a wild cat strike he never had a ballot and immediately split the union with Notts miners continuing to work oh and the strike started in Spring worse time of year and he kept saying coal stocks were running out, they never did. Finally he underestimated the enemy. Thatcher was determined that she would not be humiliated by the miners like Heath was, she had prepared new legislation controlled the flying pickets, the Police were well organised and ready for confrontation. The cause in the 90’s was no less just than that of the 70’s in fact even more just but it was lost because of poor planning, bad tactics and underestimating the enemy and a leader who portrayed badly, all the complete opposite of the 70’s campaign.

Who are the enemy in this proposed campaign; the hawks?  No it’s not the hawks that have given themselves protection status, but the people who support them the RSPB. They are the enemy and they are who we need to target. We have a chance because they are a beuarocratic organisation and us well we are able to be the guerrilla in this campaign.

My BHW just dropped through the letterbox and I just glanced at the General Manager’s article, I see in it the RSPB claim a reduction in Sparrow hawks that has to be wrong, if it’s not wrong then our campaign is unlikely to win. How do we disprove well if we believe we are right and there is a huge increase, then we have to take them on directly. We have to start challenging their figures, asking how they concluded, start discrediting them and then prove it. We need to undertake joint observation with them to look at numbers locations etc. I am suggesting actually work with them, that will give us credibility and if we are right they will lose theirs. This is where we start we need facts but facts we both agree on and to do that we must work with each other. To do that we need to start working on DEFRA and gaining influence there, a hard task which will need great skill.

Finally I sat down writing this piece with the intention of expressing support and apologising to Roland. Only last week I promised him my involvement. However due to medical reasons, I had my driving licence taken off me this week, a nightmare because I live in the country in a village where the only public transport is a bus once a week to town about 11 miles, no village shop/pub etc, a 9 year old son who I am a taxi driver for to all his after school activities and my wife works her tail off (full time) to support us. So I was/am, feeling sorry for myself, it’s coming from the land of deep pits. But because of this I cannot support in the way I had hoped. I may dip in and out because of my mood so Roland my mate and Stuart and the rest of you I wish you the very best and hope this takes off.

One last point Stuart the regional sales are spot on and the one thing that can be done from day 1 is fundraising.

 

[Roland]

Thank you for for informative piece Albear.... Like I said when I invited you to our table, that is exactly why.

Yes you will be sorely missed not now having you on the committee, but mine and everyones heart felt best wishes do go with you in this, your troubled times.

Futher, As an voice with valued input , these will always be well read and apreciated.

I have be able - very pleased to say, a replacement on the committee has been made. A person also very forthright and different slants and views. This is as I have often harped on, all so important, construction well meaning input. Thank you again Albear.

[Tony C]

A phone in sale in the Homing World & RP would kill two birds with one stone, advertising what its all about whilst getting money into the fund.

[Tony C]

Page 2 in the Homing World lib line service 60p a minute. As far as I'm aware this cost the organisations nowt to set up but gets a return on the calls made. Something similar perhaps.

[Guest bigda]

the campaign for the pigeon man  is this, we want a kill on all wild hawks,  a bit to the point, i guess. that will help  the racing pigeons, blackbirds and small bird lovers  will have to vote  to get rid of the magpies, with these two claim made, and if they are not  meet, then the campaign, stops dead, as it would  take  50 years beating about the bush  any other way

[Guest]

the campaign for the pigeon man  is this, we want a kill on all wild hawks,  a bit to the point, i guess. that will help  the racing pigeons, blackbirds and small bird lovers  will have to vote  to get rid of the magpies, with these two claim made, and if they are not  meet, then the campaign, stops dead, as it would  take  50 years beating about the bush  any other way

 

A bit to the point is fine and  a complete cull is the thing many would like. The campaign stopping dead though if this is not the objective I disagree. You have inadvertently hit on a spectacular point, the shoot yourself in the foot syndrome.

Setting objectives that are unatainable is the worst possible outcome. I think your objective is completley unattainable. In 5/10 years time that may not be the case but as the campaign progreses then ojectives can be revised.

[chickadee]

 

The problem with including Europe suggests you're representing all European fanciers too, getting everyone in the UK would be tough enough.

 

No he never thought he was representing all of Europe just inviting anyone from Europe to get involved, you are right we cannot get everyone in Europe to back it or even on the site to back it but over 100 said they would support it. Also it was never intended to be a pigeon fanciers campaign as this would not get public backing, also Duncan had approached other organisations that he knows has problems like cage and aviary members who have problems with hawks terrorising there birds by merely just sitting beside their bird houses and causing their canaries, finches and budgies to die with stress, crashing into their wire cages, stop sitting on their nests, some even having their heads pulled off but through the wire mesh

We are not the only ones having problems :-/

 

 

[chickadee]

 

me of course :-)

 

Sorry I forgot about you Pete ;D

[Guest]

 

To my line of thought,this is the surest way to go,to get results,all together,with all kinds of opinions being catered for by all kinds of people with their own specalist knowledge re same, its the Raptor groups,within the R.S.P.B that is the problem,as they are responsible for the overpopulation of the predators,as many within the R.S.P.B will agree. I think to go it alone is doomed to failure,we dont have racing athletes,according to public opinion,we have got flying rats.

 

Merlin yes agree totally but before that you need to know what you are trying to do, then you can identify, those with information, those that are specialists in what you are trying to do, and those whose skils can be manipulated best to meet the aims.

As to including Europe my opinion is that is a blinsd alley. All credibility will be lost when someone asks how you are dealing with the hawk problem in Norway and you haven't got a blody clue. Or when the Belgian fancy says who the chuff are you to think you are representing our needs when you haven't even consulted with us.

No stcik to the UK I would suggest, Dovey can use his skills to pull things together over here, though I have to say he was more interested in disintegrating than integrating when he left the site.

[Roland]

A door door will we bopened, a palm leave offered offered to our European counter parts I've no doubt. Again then they will be able to, and have the oppertunity to speak, and or do as they so choose.

Good to see the comments and suggestion for sure.

Indeed all will be looked and and credence given to any and every constructive posting.

  I know that it is easier to break matches singularly than collectively in groups.

 

[Merlin]

Alan,rather than just dwell on pigeon fanciers,I am implying all that are of the opinion that the Hawk problem is not Natural,and is almost out of control,theses are the voices you want,immaterial if they are fanciers or not,its the public we first need to win over,with a website available,where those in favour of above can post facts and figures without this damnable rhetoric,that does our cause as much harm as it does good,we should be trying to get the public to realize,what its costing to have these on the protected birds list,when there title should now read common or garden,such is the density of them,all over it appears,and if someone should ask a question about French hawks/birds surely its to be expected in time a French voice might answer this,dont for one moment think these Raptor bodies will listen to us regardless of how justified our fears are,all together racer,roller,tippler,bird people,bird groups,gamekeepers,and lots more singing from the same hymn sheet,with our first aim being to have these Raptors removed from the the Protected List Species,what other Raptor has ever had so much protection,after all Raptors are at the top of the food chain

[Guest]

Alan,rather than just dwell on pigeon fanciers,I am implying all that are of the opinion that the Hawk problem is not Natural,and is almost out of control,theses are the voices you want,immaterial if they are fanciers or not,its the public we first need to win over,with a website available,where those in favour of above can post facts and figures without this damnable rhetoric,that does our cause as much harm as it does good,we should be trying to get the public to realize,what its costing to have these on the protected birds list,when there title should now read common or garden,such is the density of them,all over it appears,and if someone should ask a question about French hawks/birds surely its to be expected in time a French voice might answer this,dont for one moment think these Raptor bodies will listen to us regardless of how justified our fears are,all together racer,roller,tippler,bird people,bird groups,gamekeepers,and lots more singing from the same hymn sheet,with our first aim being to have these Raptors removed from the the Protected List Species,what other Raptor has ever had so much protection,after all Raptors are at the top of the food chain

 

Dom, no doubt we need to change our image with the public, there are I would suggest not many members of the public who would at this time support our cause. What would be a non fancier's perception? At the mo I think we would all agree if we said which would you prefer to survive pigeons or [beautiful] hawks, it would be hawks, cull the pigeons not the hawks.

How do we get around this? We personalise the sport we show the heartache we feel when our bird ids killed we show the kill, we use image, image of young children crying, mother's crying and the fancier explaining  how devastating it is to see the death of a champion .

As to your example of a French voice, where is that coming from, we have not engaged our continental cousins and when we have a journalist asking the question about other European issues when it comes to hawks, can we pluck this French fancier from thin air. One final point to try and remove this European perspective (and don’t get me wrong if there was a concerted European campaign I would be with you 100%, but just ask Alun where were all the UK fanciers to support him 25 years ago when he was getting hammered by the Goshawk, they didn’t want to know, we need to be realistic and for now concentrate on UK and Irish issues), if we started lobbying the government and DEFRA and we called ourselves ‘European’ they would refer us to the EEC an easy get out for them.

As to the raptor people I’m on exactly the same wave length as you, these are the ones we must attack. And that is what I was trying to say earlier, the best form of attack is to work with them, when they claim the sparrowhawks have declined, we need to be able to examine the stats but more importantly we need to understand how they come to this flawed thinking. Is the methodology wrong or are the figures deliberately deflated. We need to sit with them on these studies to ensure they do not give false figures and we also need statisticians on board to help manipulate things our way and to be able to provide explanations about how flawed the raptor lobby’s figures are

 

[Guest]

 

Dom, no doubt we need to change our image with the public, there are I would suggest not many members of the public who would at this time support our cause. What would be a non fancier's perception? At the mo I think we would all agree if we said which would you prefer to survive pigeons or [beautiful] hawks, it would be hawks, cull the pigeons not the hawks.

How do we get around this? We personalise the sport we show the heartache we feel when our bird ids killed we show the kill, we use image, image of young children crying, mother's crying and the fancier explaining  how devastating it is to see the death of a champion .

As to your example of a French voice, where is that coming from, we have not engaged our continental cousins and when we have a journalist asking the question about other European issues when it comes to hawks, can we pluck this French fancier from thin air. One final point to try and remove this European perspective (and don’t get me wrong if there was a concerted European campaign I would be with you 100%, but just ask Alun where were all the UK fanciers to support him 25 years ago when he was getting hammered by the Goshawk, they didn’t want to know, we need to be realistic and for now concentrate on UK and Irish issues), if we started lobbying the government and DEFRA and we called ourselves ‘European’ they would refer us to the EEC an easy get out for them.

As to the raptor people I’m on exactly the same wave length as you, these are the ones we must attack. And that is what I was trying to say earlier, the best form of attack is to work with them, when they claim the sparrowhawks have declined, we need to be able to examine the stats but more importantly we need to understand how they come to this flawed thinking. Is the methodology wrong or are the figures deliberately deflated. We need to sit with them on these studies to ensure they do not give false figures and we also need statisticians on board to help manipulate things our way and to be able to provide explanations about how flawed the raptor lobby’s figures are

 

Cracking post Alun, sorry to hear of the driving issue, hope all goes well for you.  Your too valuable a person for the pigeon community to lose so will be sending you a p.m on something, hope you'll offer me some advice.