Ivermectin

[Roland]

So :-/

If it can supposedly harm Collie dogs, but not other strain od dogs, then why can it be potent against other forms of life? Of it can and is... just too many concerns trying to disprove it makes it - to me and several others - all the more reason to use it!

But mainly because the simplicity is that it WORKS!

[Guest IB]

So :-/

If it can supposedly harm Collie dogs, but not other strain od dogs, then why can it be potent against other forms of life? Of it can and is... just too many concerns trying to disprove it makes it - to me and several others - all the more reason to use it!

But mainly because the simplicity is that it WORKS!

 

It is not so much myself and others that are trying to disprove that ivermectin, pour-on or otherwise, has any affect on hawks, it is more you and others that are trying to prove that it does, without evidence.

 

I'm repeating myself now: the evidence is just not there, as if it had such a devastating affect on them:-

 

we would see huge reductions in raptor numbers;

wholesale reports on TV and in newspapers of persecution, and threats to use full force of law;

there would be research papers published on these deaths covering everything from dose to cause of death;

calls to withdraw the product from the market etc etc;

 

what we see is the exact opposite, not just in your patch but in everybody's, hawks continue to proliferate, everywhere - and the fact that the same stuff is used on themtoo proves that this is nothing more than urban legend.

 

And the same has been proved to be the case in other countries: the very first time you put this claim up, we had 3 or 4 Australian fanciers, an an American fancier too look in and tell you the very same - they use ivermectin on their birds, they've still got the hawks.

 

 

 

 

[Larry Lucas]

. . . Therefore 1% represents nearly a three-fold overdose. . .

 

The use of three drops of the 1% formula is recommended by Dr. David Marx, President of the National Avian Disease Task Force for Pigeons and Doves. If a little more reading on Ivermectin and Columbiformes is done, it will be discovered that the drug is safe in a wide range of dosage -- one of the reasons it is so valuable for these purposes.

 

Here is a quote from Dr. Colin Walker, well-known pigeon veterinarian from Australia:

 

For roundworms and hairworms, these days there is no reason to use anything else than an avermectin such as Ivermectin (‘Ivomec’) or Moxidectin. These medications are just so safe and effective and of course have the handy side-effect of also killing all external parasites that suck blood. This includes all mites. Do, however, watch your dose rate. Not all Ivomec is the same. It comes in a variety of strengths. Some large-volume bottles that seem really cheap are probably a fairly dilute preparation. One needs 10 mg of active drug per litre of drinking water for the medication to be effective. To figure out how much to add to the drinking water, multiply the strength on the label by what will become the dose to equal 10. For example, a common strength available is 0.8 mg/ml (0.8 g/litre). 0.8 x 13 equals approximately 10. So therefore, one needs to add 13 ml to 1 litre to give an effective dose. Similarly, a brand that is 5 mg/ml will only need 2 ml per litre to be added to the drinker.

 

All avermectins are well tolerated and the birds can be fed and loft flown routinely. These medications can also be used safely during breeding, racing and moulting. In overdose, the birds will become quiet and some may vomit. However, with withdrawal of the drug the birds become normal in 1 – 2 days.

 

[jimmy white]

yes ib,, but maybe one or two hawks  less ,,,,that breed one or two less etc etc ,, it does kill hawks ,, same as trounce" canker" kills hawks ,, dead hawks dont breed ;D

[Roland]

 

It is not so much myself and others that are trying to disprove that ivermectin, pour-on or otherwise, has any affect on hawks, it is more you and others that are trying to prove that it does, without evidence.

 

I'm repeating myself now: the evidence is just not there, as if it had such a devastating affect on them:-

 

we would see huge reductions in raptor numbers;

wholesale reports on TV and in newspapers of persecution, and threats to use full force of law;

there would be research papers published on these deaths covering everything from dose to cause of death;

calls to withdraw the product from the market etc etc;

 

what we see is the exact opposite, not just in your patch but in everybody's, hawks continue to proliferate, everywhere - and the fact that the same stuff is used on themtoo proves that this is nothing more than urban legend.

 

And the same has been proved to be the case in other countries: the very first time you put this claim up, we had 3 or 4 Australian fanciers, an an American fancier too look in and tell you the very same - they use ivermectin on their birds, they've still got the hawks.

 

 

 

If you say so, and believe, great for you. Used to use Strongrip and nary a sign of ticks / lice whatever all season, and that is same but weaker, and not pour on, so yes it does work... If Falconers etc. want to believe and convince us otherwise, so be it. Bet they wouldn't even bother if there weren't some basis of merit. So Iand countless know that it cleans Lice / Ticks etc. but inside and out of the birds, so how come you say it don't / doesn't when it obviously does. Better still why? Surely there is no need for the lengths and pains of yours to try so adamantly to tutrn folks off it!

 

[Guest IB]

If you say so, and believe, great for you. Used to use Strongrip and nary a sign of ticks / lice whatever all season, and that is same but weaker, and not pour on, so yes it does work... If Falconers etc. want to believe and convince us otherwise, so be it. Bet they wouldn't even bother if there weren't some basis of merit. So Iand countless know that it cleans Lice / Ticks etc. but inside and out of the birds, so how come you say it don't / doesn't when it obviously does. Better still why? Surely there is no need for the lengths and pains of yours to try so adamantly to tutrn folks off it!

 

I've stayed away from falconer sites. Here's extracts from research, 2 different countries. Treating hawks with ivermectin. The reason I'm banging on, is that on a worldwide forum, I believe it important to have facts, evidence for and against. Then others can make up their own mind, not have it made up for them.

 

KNEMIDOKOPTES IN A SWAINSON'S HAWK, BUTEO SWAINSONI

 

http://apt.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1638%2F03-043&ct=1

 

 

Serratospiculiasis in Captive Falcons in the Middle East: A Review

 

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&issn=1082-6742&volume=015&issue=01&page=0002&ct=1

 

 

[frank-123]

i used that horse wormer http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Eqvalan-horse-wormer-paste/productinfo/EQV/

funny how when birds are attacked by sparrowhawks the falcon never returns to eat more of its prey(pigeon)

when most fanciers tell me it will always come back

 

twice i have lost birds to a sparrowhawk one last year and one this year but both times the hawk never showed up  

coincidence or it didn't like the taste?

[Roland]

Perhaps got bogged down and too heavy to fly with all the ticks and lice etc. that the Eqvalan-horse-wormer- didn't control  ;D ;D

[Guest ljb107]

I use the pour on for cattle and sheep and it works fine, just 1-3 drops on the back of the neck and it clears most things.

[steve]

what price are you paying for it these days

is £10 a good price or am i being ripped off

[Guest ljb107]

for the pour on, it is a very good price depending on the size of the bottle.

 

Lloyd

[steve]

 

theres 20ml in bottle and think its 0.05%

 

[Chairman]

Dur to the high volume of PM's I submit the following which was given to me by the late David Palmer (Vertrinary).

Eqvalan (Horse Paste). Recommended doseage rate for racing pigeons is as follows:-

Squeeze 1" of the paste (these are marked onto the syringe itself) and mix into a small amount of warm water (NOT HOT), when the paste is dissolved add further amounts of water until the total volume reaches 2 PINTS.(this amount will treat approx 25 pigeons)

DO NOT TREAT BIRDS THAT ARE REARING YOUNGSTERS IN THE NEST.

For worm / parasite infestations renew the treatment after 10 - 14 days after the initial treatment, once treated this should remain in the birds bloodstream for approx 12 months (1 Year), therefore issue treatment on a annual basis.

*Ivermectin, the active ingrediant of EQVALAN Horse Paste is produced from a natural occuring fungus ( Streptomyces Avermitilis).

This product is marketed by Merial Animal Health Limited and can be aquired from Agricultural / Farmers and Horse provision outlets.

Its a POM classified product so be tactful when purchasing (the strength of Ivermectin used in this product is 1.87%).

I am a only a pigeon fancier, and I am prepare to share this with fellow fanciers, I have used this in the past and find it much more effective that the drops or injection variables. Used as directed it is an effective product. I would also like to make clear that once the birds have had 1 drink of the medicated water they are treated, if the drinker is empty after they have recieved their feed just top back up with fresh water. I hope you find this information of general interest.

[just ask me]

i don't know what to say anymore for the last time ive seen falconers give this to there birds on dead chicks this is how they worm there falcons i don't know how this rumor started but its crap ill say again Ive seen it with my own eyes  it has no ill effects on falcons there are posts up showing u scientific proof and I'm here saying Ive seen it used on falcons  with no ill effects what more do u need to hear there are other methods  

 

ill say again this does not work

 

some one put some solid evidence up here other wise   even one little bit

[Chairman]

IVERMECTIN- An acceptable solution.

having read and engaged with this thread over the last few days. I may have an acceptable solution as to why some fanciers claim that Ivermectin does NOT kill hawks and also some fanciers claim that it definately does, well to confuse you even more you are ALL right.

The answer lies in which brand name product that was used.Not too long ago the RSPB lobbied goverment ministers to withdraw the manufacturing licence on a company producing a product named "IVOMEC" yes the base ingredient was Ivermectin they also mixed into the solution 2 or 3 phosphates, it was these that were killing the hawks faster than the RSPB could breed and release them. The product was absolutely lethal against birds of prey.The goverment refused their demands the RSPB the issued a writ asking them to demand the removal of these phosphates by the manufacturer, this again was not adhered too. The product "IVOMEC" is slightly more expensive than other brands, but it does a lot more than it says on the can.Incidently it is marketed in a gold coloured box and is obviously a POM product but with some tact can be purchased at farm / country stores especially if YOU HAD A GOAT that required worming, and we all keep a goat to keep the grass down, don't we....................well get my gist? I hope this is understandable.

[Roland]

Too true, and very helpful at that! Many on here will endorse these sentiments I feel.

[Roland]

May buy 20 years supply if the life expectancy permits lol. you bet the RSPB having given up!

[just ask me]

IVERMECTIN- An acceptable solution.

having read and engaged with this thread over the last few days. I may have an acceptable solution as to why some fanciers claim that Ivermectin does NOT kill hawks and also some fanciers claim that it definately does, well to confuse you even more you are ALL right.

The answer lies in which brand name product that was used.Not too long ago the RSPB lobbied goverment ministers to withdraw the manufacturing licence on a company producing a product named "IVOMEC" yes the base ingredient was Ivermectin they also mixed into the solution 2 or 3 phosphates, it was these that were killing the hawks faster than the RSPB could breed and release them. The product was absolutely lethal against birds of prey.The goverment refused their demands the RSPB the issued a writ asking them to demand the removal of these phosphates by the manufacturer, this again was not adhered too. The product "IVOMEC" is slightly more expensive than other brands, but it does a lot more than it says on the can.Incidently it is marketed in a gold coloured box and is obviously a POM product but with some tact can be purchased at farm / country stores especially if YOU HAD A GOAT that required worming, and we all keep a goat to keep the grass down, don't we....................well get my gist? I hope this is understandable.

 

now this will probally work never tried it  but sounds the part

[Guest]

Interesting it is Ivo Mec I have been using but was going to move to Ivermectin because it is much cheaper..................... perhaps I won't now!!

[jimmy white]

i used that horse wormer http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Eqvalan-horse-wormer-paste/productinfo/EQV/

funny how when birds are attacked by sparrowhawks the falcon never returns to eat more of its prey(pigeon)

when most fanciers tell me it will always come back

 

twice i have lost birds to a sparrowhawk one last year and one this year but both times the hawk never showed up  

coincidence or it didn't like the taste?

 

i think the taste may have went for it ;D ;D ;D

[Chairman]

I dont think I would rush back to the Kentucky if I got a bad tasting bargain bucket either, would you ;D

[Guest IB]

Ivomec is the trade name for all Merial's products. Injectable, Pour-On etc are types of product and contain ivermectin at different strengths:0.5% and 1%. Ivermectin is the active ingredient - and the only ingredient in its products according to Merial's own publicity. Not surprising given that they are for treating farm animals which will end up on our dinner plates, so what these products can contain are governed by strict controls at UK and EEC levels. Taste doesn't seem to stop us eating them.

[wee red hens]

is equest horse wormer gel the same as the paste for treatment?

[jimmy white]

you can buy products containing ivermectin from any "pet city shop"  these products contain very little ivermectin,, the equest horse wormer is obviously a lot stronger , some actually pure ivermectin , i have used this paste on pigeons , that have won well, so this has done no harm to the pigeon ,, but if a sparrow hawk kills, and eats a pigeon with a" suffice enough strength ivermectin"  ,,it would most certainly kill the hawk , this i have pointed out in a very carefull manner ??  [ as this,,, to my knowledge has been proved]

[Guest IB]

Back in 2005, when these issues were first raised in BHW, I contacted Harkers. It was one of their Scientists that told BHW that ivermectin built up in hawks and eventually poisoned them.

 

Later, I viewed a video by the late Frank Harper, in which he said ivermectin doesn't remain all that long in the pigeon's bloodstream, so don't expect year-long protection from one dose.

 

Since this thread burst to life I have been aware that the body rids itself of antibiotics at a steady rate, called the residue depletion rate. So there's no long-term deposit in 'the meat'.

 

I put these FACTS to the same Scientist at Harkers by email last night. Here is his reply:-

 

Thank you for your enquiry regarding Harkamectin.

 

Since 2005 research has shown that the Ivermectin group of insecticides do not accumulate in the tissues of birds of prey. My letter to the SHU was based on knowledge at that time.I now stand corrected.

 

Residues of ivermectin in pigeons are totally depleted in 14 days from the day of treatment. Tissues used for the residue work were muscle,kidney, liver and both sub-cutaneous and peri-renal fat.

Ivermectin is detectable in serum in pigeons for a maximum of 3-4 days.

 

Our efficacy trial work with Harkamectin did not show any resistance in any worm species tested ( roundworm, tapeworm, hairworm )

 

Please give me a call on   ...... if you wish to discuss further.

 

Best Regards

J M Ballany

 

Dr Ballany is the same person whom I and SHU contacted in 2005. Serum is blood, so Frank Harper was right. 3 days and its over.