treatment

[Guest]

Kev, it's clear from your description of how you look after your birds that you are a dedicated fancier who deserves to do better. But have you ever thought that perhaps you spend too much time fussing over them ? I know it's slightly different with widowhood cocks - which we mainly fly with some success at National, BBC and CSCFC level - but they are shut up and left quiet from morning exercise at 7am, when they usually fly for at least an hour, until evening exercise at 6pm when they generally fly of their own accord for another hour or are shut out for an hour if they don't . The loft is only cleaned while they are exercising and they only have about three training tosses from around 20 miles before racing starts and never see the inside of the training basket again all season, even if they miss a few weeks racing. I know that on the natural system, which we also use for a few distance hens, the odd training toss is necessary - but I would suggest that 50-60 miles every day of the week is completely pointless and might well explain why your birds are a few minutes behind every week - they are just sick of being sent down the road when all they want is a bit of peace at home with their mates, nest and eggs.! If everything else is right they don't need that amount of work - especially if you want them for the longer races. Incidentally we don't use anything other than good corn, grit and minerals and rely on our birds natural immunity to keep them healthy. If any look off colour they stay in the loft and heal themselves. If they show no sign of doing that after a reasonable length of time, they are disposed off. The same also goes for young birds. Of course in our 50 years in the sport we have doctored pigeons when they were sick - but I can't think of one which actually achieved anything later in life either as a breeder or racer.    

Great Post

 

 

[Guest]

 

Hi Vince

So to ensure that your natural immunity is working how many times a year do you have swabs taken

and there droppings tested ;) ;)

Cheers

Homer 49

 

 

Hi Alex.no need to test them if natural immunity was not working it would show.But is this testing 100% accurate surely for 100% accuracy you would have to carry this test out on every pigeon in your lofts.What about yourself Alex how often do you carry out these tests.

[holmsidelofts]

No test is one hundred percent accurate. By taking multiple samples from around the loft you you get an understanding of the overall condition of the loft. If you have worms showing in one bird you have to treat them all as theres a good chance they will all have them. swabbing for canker is 100% accurate as it comes from the bird itself. I test my droppings weekly as it allows to me to monitor the ongoing help of my birds, it takes 20 minutes a week and will show me if there is an issue on the way and i can tackle it before its to late and the birds are ill. I dont recommend blind treatment, preventative measures are always the way.

 

just out of curiosity kev if you want your droppings tested just to prove a point to everyone pm and i would be glad to do it for you free of charge.

 

Cheers mate.

jas.

 

 

 

Hi Alex.no need to test them if natural immunity was not working it would show.But is this testing 100% accurate surely for 100% accuracy you would have to carry this test out on every pigeon in your lofts.What about yourself Alex how often do you carry out these tests.

 

 

[Guest kev d]

hi magpie , thanks for your post just a few things i go 3 times a day to the birds as they are not in my garden

i have them on a plot of land a few minutes away from where i live but i dont handle them all the time very rarely

just before i send them to a race or training i can send them training every day monday through to thursday if i want but some times

i dont bother i only send them when i think they need it . i dont race in any sat club just the nfc so the training is a must i agree with what your saying but i dont fuss over them most of the time when i check on them there all out side flying or messing about in the field next to the loft but at the end of the day i like to think that the training and race basket as sorted them out dont get me wrong i only send what i think will do the job if its not fit or the wing is wrong they dont go if the birds are not up to it so be it , or if im at fault and i might be i will change my ways but ive been doing this for years now with what i call moderate success in the nfc with a 4th section D saintes 266 open ,5th setion D 385 sennen cove , 8th setion D 887 open messac ,and flying in the devon and cornwall continentel club out of lamballe 2x7open , 1x15open , and a 21st open and 45 open and other positions further down the open sheet . cheers kev

[HOMER49]

 

Hi Alex.no need to test them if natural immunity was not working it would show.But is this testing 100% accurate surely for 100% accuracy you would have to carry this test out on every pigeon in your lofts.What about yourself Alex how often do you carry out these tests.

 

Hi Vince

During the racing every 3/4 weeks

The canker pathogen is passed through the drinking vessel so if one one bird

returning from a race has picked up the pathogen it infects the rest ;) ;)

and you have not answered the question how many times do you test

Cheers

Homer 49

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

Hi Vince

During the racing every 3/4 weeks

The canker pathogen is passed through the drinking vessel so if one one bird

returning from a race has picked up the pathogen it infects the rest ;) ;)

and you have not answered the question how many times do you test

Cheers

Homer 49

 

Hi Alex,i don't carry out these tests not interested in them.

 

 

[Guest strapper]

if you eat too much you get fat...this called food abuse

if you persist in over dosing your birds this is called drug abuse.

answer is to keep to what it says on the tub/jar/bottle wotever....drugs dont ruin pigeons...fanciers ruin pigeons!!!!

 

times of just letting your pigeons go through a disease and see whats left is gone!

in todays racing treatments are a must....maybe not what we want to hear but its a fact.

i use antibiotics but never do i abuse the dosages.

only i use the vet when i feel something aint right...no use guessing .

then when told what is up with them do i treat.

 

[lanarkshire lad]

well folks i want your honest opinions on this when it comes to treatments i try not

to give them any thing what so ever but these last few seasons my birds are missing that extra few

yards coming but not good enough ? i was talking to albear tonight about it and alan tells me the truth ,he thinks

i should treat them for canker and fungel treatment on a regular basis with treating them for this do you think it will improve there

performance , i will do this next season and see what happens , so come on be truthfull treat or not to treat , but no nasty comments

please keep it sivel, cheers kev

One of the best fanciers scotland ever had jock allan of symington treated his pigeons every year for cocci canker and worms and his pigeons performed well at the national races most years, but some years better than others like everybody he had good years and not so good years.

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

it has been stated in here numerous times that all pigeons carry canker and coccidiosis so at least I think we all agree on that BUT heres the hitch how many of these pathogens does it take to manifest as symptoms I truly belive this is the question and here are several points to consider

1. Diffrent birds can tolerate diffrent amounts of the same pathogen and have completely diffrent reactions, what may completly disable one bird will not even show symptoms in another ! so when we breed " resistant " birds do we not actually mean tolerant ? as they still have it

2. having said they all have it always dosent it stand to reason that slightly altering conditions in the loft would help keep the number of these pathogens in check and also increasing these measures ( treating ) during times of probable higher exposure ( racing ) would help keep these numbers in check ?

3. allowing the pathogen semi free reign during times of minimal stress would allow it to manifest as symptoms in less tolerant individuals and allow the handler to decide to try to treat these birds OR remove them from the flock and in turn increase the ability of the whole flock to maintain a higher level of nonsymptomatic infection rate ( immunity )

[Guest slugmonkey]

4. By allowing the whole flock to increase the amount of exposure they are tolerant to wouldnt this increase the performance of the whole flock and allow for an even better ability to maintain overall health

5. Using birds with a higher tolerance as a base if you then decreased the amount of infection by treating before a race wouldnt you increase the performance of this bird for that particular day ?

 

This is the logic ( part ) that I use to manage my birds

[Guest]

4. By allowing the whole flock to increase the amount of exposure they are tolerant to wouldnt this increase the performance of the whole flock and allow for an even better ability to maintain overall health

5. Using birds with a higher tolerance as a base if you then decreased the amount of infection by treating before a race wouldnt you increase the performance of this bird for that particular day ?

 

This is the logic ( part ) that I use to manage my birds

 

In terms of long distance racing could I ask;where you race, what sort of speed difference there is between those birds that used to win 30 years ago, ten years ago compared to now?

[Guest slugmonkey]

speed records just increase as time marches on

but I dont see your point if you are constantly breeding a more tolerant bird the performance would get better with every generation ?

you also have to take into account weather patterns over this same time

to answer your question I don't know but I can tell you that we had the first decent 600 mile race we have had in 6 years last year

By decent I mean we had day birds

[Guest slugmonkey]

after some thought I would say they are faster although I am not 100% on this

[Guest IB]

.... During the racing every 3/4 weeks .... The canker pathogen is passed through the drinking vessel so if one bird returning from a race has picked up the pathogen it infects the rest ... Cheers Homer 49

 

it has been stated in here numerous times that all pigeons carry canker and coccidiosis so at least I think we all agree on that BUT here’s the hitch how many of these pathogens does it take to manifest as symptoms I truly believe this is the question….

 

I’d like to expand on the similar themes Homer49 and Slugmonkey raised in their last posts which I’ve cut-down to show only the bits I’m picking up on:-

 

It has been known since the 1950’s that there are a number of different strains of the canker ‘pathogen’, not all of which are capable of causing the disease. The same 1950’s work showed that exposure to these milder strains gives the bird immunity against these deadlier ones. Leon Whitney made reference to this ‘work with the deadly Jones Barn strain of canker’ in his book of the time, ‘Keep Your Pigeons Flying’ and Gordon Chalmers refers to both in his current articles on canker & trichomonias.

 

So a bird picking up ‘canker pathogens’ in the basket won’t necessarily spread the disease to your loft, it could do quite the opposite. But because of years of so-called ‘preventative canker treatments’ what it could also do is spread a drug-resistant strain to your loft, which no amount of treatment will shift.

 

The same principle holds true for cocci. Mild exposure gives the bird immunity against the disease. You are basically vaccinating the bird against both diseases.

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

But what I am saying is if you allow the bird exposure in the off season he will build immunity if you then treat during times of increased exposure it will help his performance without damaging his immunity

[Guest]

speed records just increase as time marches on

but I dont see your point if you are constantly breeding a more tolerant bird the performance would get better with every generation ?

you also have to take into account weather patterns over this same time

 

Wasn’t actually making any point at the moment, just trying to comprehend where you're coming from. As an aside speeds generally get quicker but as an example the North road flyers into South Wales the speeds have not increased greatly; south road flyers some of the speeds being attained consistently are way up I would say.

I will make a point now though. I have to be honest and say I do not believe in this natural immunity build up, society reflects the fact that we no longer have the immunities you talk about. It's a bit of a viscious circle for man. Go back a 100 years or more to the mid west /w ild west you had pioneering folk who lived by their strength of constitution if you did not have strong constitutions and  worked hard you did not survive, and even if you did survive what was life expectancy 50, 60 if you were lucky, those that survived longer were of the wealthier class who could afford good nutrition and healthcare and of course the true pioneers with iron constitutions but they were fairly rare even then. Today we no longer require these iron constitutions we live sedentary lives, we travel everywhere by car, we take the kids to school 400 yds down the road by car, we get a taxi to and from the pub, we drive to work. At work most of the real hard laborious tasks have gone, new machines/technologies have made it easy, we have become obese, we are sick far more often we lose more time off work, we are not as healthy, we are not as immune.

Funny that we seem to be living 20/30 years longer but have lost our natural immunity we are not disease resistant, we have more disease than we have ever had. BUT we live longer than ever, we are active longer than ever, there are people that have diabetes for example that would have died from it years ago but are now top athletes because by the wonders of modern science and their own self discipline they can control the disease and be top athletes!

So what’s better if we look at the circle of life, an iron constitution where you can live with pain and disease and work steady and hard but die when you’re 50. Or a life with discipline good nutrition, good healthcare short term bouts of athleticism (there is no need for any other) and you can be successful and happy and live to a ripe old age.

I think that’s the difference slugmonkey between whet you are saying and me. And I have to say finally I have yet to go to any successful loft that races pigeons that has built up this natural immunity. The great Geoff Cooper in his video that came out in the early 90 said he only used herbal products for treating canker. When I had the privilege of visiting him in 2002 he had abandoned that and gone back to ‘normal’ canker treatments. The only loft I think that may have built it up is a breeding loft that I occasionally visit but those birds do not come into contact with any others and are not susceptible to secondary infection from other fanciers birds.

The progress in my lifetime especially since the late 60’s has been phenomenal, I like science and prefer to use the benefits of science than too leave life or death to natural immunity.

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I try to do both I belive untreated breeders are the way to go but I think you have to treat to Race at a competitive level although I do think most over do it

[Guest]

I try to do both I belive untreated breeders are the way to go but I think you have to treat to Race at a competitive level although I do think most over do it

 

That's the discipline I referred to, no doubt you keep ramming the stuff in and you are going to do more damage than good.

[Guest slugmonkey]

I agree but you have to have the health to begin with and if you use " herbal " stuff in the racer AND meds I think you can achive a lot

[peterpau]

Well interesting posts on here, I have two books. Long distance pigeon racing by John Clements and Pigeon health management by Dr Colin Walker. Success seems to be gained by treatment or not, cleaning or not, in equal messure. I treat and have total confidence I'll get 'em from where  ever they go. 275 mile for young 'uns 500 mile for yearlings North or South up to 750 mile. I have one race left to have a crack at, Lerwick, with my south roaders. Lerwick aint new to me flown it 25 years ago but not with south roaders. Have scored from Tarbes and Perth with the same pigeon.

Slugmonkey. I have a hen here that carries a high amount of kanker she breeds winners and is related to my 750 miler. She has a high tolerance so no worries.

Is it not our aim like you say raise the immunity and lower the levels of pathogens.

The biggest problem for most on here is they like certain birds and don't have the confidence to push 'em.

If you treat or test, and you are confident they are right they have to go. No place for untried birds here. No favourites. The young 'uns stand on there own merrits, as I never look in my book to see what they are off till after racing.      

[Guest slugmonkey]

I agree wholeheartedly when the guys in my club are cutting back because the weather is bad I am unloading the loft I have the utmost confidence in my birds and methods

[peterpau]

I agree wholeheartedly when the guys in my club are cutting back because the weather is bad I am unloading the loft I have the utmost confidence in my birds and methods

 

I like your posts far better than most. I like your style.

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I think most dont push hard enough they will only go as far as you will make them !!

I think our birds are capable of EXTRORDINARY results we just dont give them the tools THEY need I have said it before I think 85% of what the normal fancier does is for themselves not the birds

[Guest]

Well interesting posts on here, I have two books. Long distance pigeon racing by John Clements and Pigeon health management by Dr Colin Walker. Success seems to be gained by treatment or not, cleaning or not, in equal messure. I treat and have total confidence I'll get 'em from where  ever they go. 275 mile for young 'uns 500 mile for yearlings North or South up to 750 mile. I have one race left to have a crack at, Lerwick, with my south roaders. Lerwick aint new to me flown it 25 years ago but not with south roaders. Have scored from Tarbes and Perth with the same pigeon.

Slugmonkey. I have a hen here that carries a high amount of kanker she breeds winners and is related to my 750 miler. She has a high tolerance so no worries.

Is it not our aim like you say raise the immunity and lower the levels of pathogens.

The biggest problem for most on here is they like certain birds and don't have the confidence to push 'em.

If you treat or test, and you are confident they are right they have to go. No place for untried birds here. No favourites. The young 'uns stand on there own merrits, as I never look in my book to see what they are off till after racing.      

 

Peter how far do you send your yearlings?

[Guest slugmonkey]

Mine ALL go 600