Paratyphoid Injection

[Guest Owen]

Hi Cowboy

you missed a bit out, I think. This disease is rife in it's subclinical state and so it gets into the race baskets everywhere and all the time.

And the benevelent gentlemen who don't think they should be bothered about it are busy making sure we all get a slice of this stuff.

Of course I understand that they can not afford to vaccinate their birds, so I am thinking of starting a fund for them. This is so that they will not miss out on what the rest of us are doing. It is a good job we have the NHS, because if we did'nt, these poor people would want to build up the resistance to disease in their children as well. I can see now how wrong the Medical Profession was to vaccinate against things like polio and TB. They should have left us to build up our resistance. And when I was a Regular Soldier I may have been better off if I had not had those vaccinations before I went abroad. Having the vaccinations must have been a sign of weakness. It is a pity I did'nt refuse because I could have become tougher if I had fought the diseases in stead. Now that I have thought along these lines, I can see that I have been wrong to clean out and wash the drinkers. What was I thinking off. These birds need to be toughened up and they must learn to cope with a few germs. Only the tough for me from now on.  

[Delboy]

Agree with Jas, as an example children are given MMR vaccine's because the virus's are killers and therefore the vaccine is used as a preventive and saves a lot of children from becoming ill or even dying. During my pigeon career I have never mistreated or abused the use of antibiotics or anything else, but have to agree that paratyphoid is becoming a problem and I know a lot of top flyers who inject each year for peace of mind, plus they also state they have no or very little trouble with Y/B sickness.

 

John B.

 

My youngest boy was a smashing kid and was talking and walking and achieving all the expected milestones , a typical wee rascal, all was great until he was given the MMR jag. He didnt speak and stopped communicating with us. We thought he had become deaf but what it was, he had become severely autistic and it was and still is , the worst time of our lives. Dont you lads  tell me about compulsary vaccinating with children. The MMR vaccination scandal has been the biggest Government cover up since the thalidomide

tragedies. Racing pigeons is a different kettle of fish, I would exhaust every other avenue against paratyphoid before I would vaccinate. ps. I vaccinate against PMV every year and I have had it twice in last 10 years.Both occasions using Colombivac, so what does that tell us? ARE VACCINES COMPLETELY SAFE ? In my experiences,  definately NO

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

save your money

 

I believe you are correct

 

Have a look at a interesting view from one of the most well known vets.

 

http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/news/paratyphoid.html

 

 

[wolfey11]

Gareth, you are right that De Weerd does not recommend vaccination, although elsewhere on his web site he seems to recommend a "blind" treatment with Parastop (antibiotic)

 

This conflicting advice from the best Belgian vets is very confusing. Dr Vandersanden does recommend vaccination after tests to determine whether or not a treatment is required beforehand.  (Its not easy to get suitable/reliable tests done in this country)

 

I went to a moot last week, & Jos Thone says he does vaccinate for Paratyphoid & vaccinates his youngsters TWICE for Paramyxo - once after weening & I think he said again after 4 weeks.

[holmsidelofts]

Gareth, you are right that De Weerd does not recommend vaccination, although elsewhere on his web site he seems to recommend a "blind" treatment with Parastop (antibiotic)

 

This conflicting advice from the best Belgian vets is very confusing. Dr Vandersanden does recommend vaccination after tests to determine whether or not a treatment is required beforehand.  (Its not easy to get suitable/reliable tests done in this country)

 

I went to a moot last week, & Jos Thone says he does vaccinate for Paratyphoid & vaccinates his youngsters TWICE for Paramyxo - once after weening & I think he said again after 4 weeks.

 

Parastop is not an antibiotic, all antibiotics are prescription only drugs not available over the counter, Parastop is available over the counter.

 

[OLDYELLOW]

 

I believe you are correct

 

Have a look at a interesting view from one of the most well known vets.

 

http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/news/paratyphoid.html

 

 

the link is an intresting read , seems to me that if you treat/vacinate  it itself is a waiste of time for the following reasons 1 the live vaccine is the best treatment , and if you treat them more birds may be infected with the disease , 2 if a live vaccine is used then the live infection is shed via the dropings making more birds exposed to paratyphoid , so using this vaccine when birds not ailing could set any loft further back by further exposing more birds to paratyhoid , so in my mind theres the answer people treating for this are doing more to make this disease stronger and there birds immune systems weaker by treating healthy birds , i have never had to treat for paratyphoid and hope never have to , regular screening of your birds and removing weak birds will limit the risks of most diseases in any loft , nature does this by natural sellection and only the strongest and the fitest survive in the wild , in a pigeon loft any sign of weakness then these birds should be removed and not continuously proped up with medication , birds that ail always fail  

[Guest strapper]

last season(2008 i had a problem with my youngbirds,missed the 1st few races and had to come in on the comebacks.

in 2 races they scored 7th fed 13th fed and 18th fed and 30th fed,this year the same hen that was 7th and 18th fed was 15th fed lilliers this year254mls..this hen was ill and treated as a youngbird,not all that ail .. will fail...but there are some that will do...but so do lots of birds that are healthy and are rubbish.

[OLDYELLOW]

you must of caught it in its early stages before it caused joint damage , lots of healthy birds are rubbish one is that they arent up to the job in the first place and lack brains not physical health  

[Guest strapper]

you must of caught it in its early stages before it caused joint damage , lots of healthy birds are rubbish one is that they arent up to the job in the first place and lack brains not physical health  

 

hi sorry mark thought you meant ill birds in general..they didnt have paratyhoid,..sorry m8

[ribble]

 

the link is an intresting read , seems to me that if you treat/vacinate  it itself is a waiste of time for the following reasons 1 the live vaccine is the best treatment , and if you treat them more birds may be infected with the disease , 2 if a live vaccine is used then the live infection is shed via the dropings making more birds exposed to paratyphoid , so using this vaccine when birds not ailing could set any loft further back by further exposing more birds to paratyhoid , so in my mind theres the answer people treating for this are doing more to make this disease stronger and there birds immune systems weaker by treating healthy birds , i have never had to treat for paratyphoid and hope never have to , regular screening of your birds and removing weak birds will limit the risks of most diseases in any loft , nature does this by natural sellection and only the strongest and the fitest survive in the wild , in a pigeon loft any sign of weakness then these birds should be removed and not continuously proped up with medication , birds that ail always fail  

 

If you vaccinate all your birds there should be no problem of it spreading via the droppings, they would be jabbed at the end of november so will not be mixing with other birds.

I think the rise in PMV cases that we read about is partly due to the ones who use the live one looking for the boost during race season, and who's to say some don't use paratyphoid live vaccine for the same reason.

[OLDYELLOW]

 

hi sorry mark thought you meant ill birds in general..they didnt have paratyhoid,..sorry m8

 

high doses of canker and cocci and ecoili can be treated effectively and birds can go on to win i have no doubt about this , sometimes weak birds are more subceptable  to illnesses as lack a good constitution ( thats the ability to fight diseases via there immune system ) , its usualy these birds that get ill first and spread disease to the rest of the collony / flock , if these weak birds are removed earlier then the likelyhood of further diseases speading is reduced  

[OLDYELLOW]

 

If you vaccinate all your birds there should be no problem of it spreading via the droppings, they would be jabbed at the end of november so will not be mixing with other birds.

I think the rise in PMV cases that we read about is partly due to the ones who use the live one looking for the boost during race season, and who's to say some don't use paratyphoid live vaccine for the same reason.

 

thats not what the vet says in the link above , it just exposes more birds to the paratyphoid

[Guest strapper]

 

high doses of canker and cocci and ecoili can be treated effectively and birds can go on to win i have no doubt about this , sometimes weak birds are more subceptable  to illnesses as lack a good constitution ( thats the ability to fight diseases via there immune system ) , its usualy these birds that get ill first and spread disease to the rest of the collony / flock , if these weak birds are removed earlier then the likelyhood of further diseases speading is reduced  

 

fully agree with you mark, as you know a strong imune system doesnt stop the bird from being ill but it builds a barrier so to speak to help fight it when an illness comes calling.

this is shown in the way the goverment are vaccinating people with underlying illneses 1st against swine flu as their imune system is weaker .

 

 

[wolfey11]

Holmsidelofts - Think its Norofloxin which is an antibiotic!  It should not be available "over the counter"!  Advertised in the BHW but comes in from Holland - I believe to exploit a "loophole".

[Roland]

Well as for me, I am all for naturual immunisation. However there are times, whether we like it or not. Or whether in most cases we have caused it, which of course many have. There comes a time when our birds need our help.

They thought Polio was erradicated till they stopped jabbing. Soon put paid to that when it quickly came rife again. That is, and has been the most effective jab of all time. Many preventives don't stop a bird from catching, as many still do and become carrierss, but the consequencies can be a lot lot less.

Having had Samonella / Pharhoid let me tell you it is devasting. One bird with it can handle a treat and win in a show pen.... and infect the loft!

Hence why I have stripped my whole loft down. Every single inch has been blow torched well. Will have two / three coats of paint. Nest boxes have been soaked in Bleach. Dried and now will be blowed torched throughly. Then varnished. Am discarding my nest bowls and going back to two bricks. Yes well bleached and blowed torched. Vikron will be used every scrape. Why?  :-/ Because it is one hell of a thing to get shot off. AND now well shot off I won't ever let up in the slightest to maintain a tight run ship to eliminate any and every chance of ever having it again!

Now as for anyone vaccinating against such disasters  :-/ ... we all are custodians of our birds and have to do wha we think is best for our birds and that is ALL inmates.

Will be debating next Monday a to whether I shall vaccinate... seems likely I will be.

[frank-123]

seems there is a very big split in the veterinary trade some for injection some against

looks like its up to each individual if the wish to jag

[frank-123]

i have been told not every stool of an infected bird shed salmonella there might be a break of at least a week or even every second week thats why its very difficult to treat and find in your birds

[jimmy white]

having read read these most interesting posts on vaccination for prataphoid/salmonela, and to a certain extent agree with most of them,, ,i,e the survival of the fittest, , but loft hygiene must, in my opinion come into this, i,e a loft contaminated with mice or rats, can and will, engourage this dreaded disease, of course its very easy for us to say" the survival of the fittest " but through mice and rats , the fittest can contract this disease very easily, [having seen this with the late bobby caruthers loosing half his pigeons to this dreaded disease, and off course, many more],, there was no vaccine then. in my opinion, any birds showing clinical signs [proven by a vet] of paratyphoid/salmonella,  can be eliminated,,,, but will this cure the problem, in short it wont, salmonella/paratyphoid, in some cases  is the most hidden of  diseases, i,e the carriers which show no signs of this  disease are the main problem, these "carriers" can be in anyones loft, unknown to the fancier, in recent years i have seen an increase in this disease , and now believe that by vaccinating birds against this, with parastop or "columbovac paratyphus " would , along with loft hygeine , at least help in protecting the main flock of the birds, against these hidden carriers . i am now of the believe that by doing this, in time to come, these hidden carriers would become less and less, and in fact lower this disease level,,,, i am of the belief of survival of the fittest,,,, but in the case of paratyphoid/salmonella, this is not neccessary so, as the fittest can contract this very easy from any carrier, , this is certainly a very interesting topic , with many interesting veiws, there is a thread on paratyphoid on "sticky" well worth a read, but one thing for sure is , its the most dreaded disease in pigeons.

[Guest strapper]

this is very good in the way that this will raise awareness amongst fanciers and give them the knowledge to combat this, and other illneses that will from time to time call at their lofts .

no one is imune from illneses and we have to accept this and deal with it.

wether we choose to use antibiotics or vaccines, they are a part of racing these days and they will be here to stay.

like anything else..abuse of whats sent to help you will be your downfall.

stick to the dosages and requirements.

[Ronnie]

so if its virtually invisible in some birds how would a small team fancier like myself know if its in my loft?Ok birds get ill and disposed of but unseen to me others may have caught it and become carriers.Now i have a small team so when i breed youngsters am i going to breed more carriers?Lets just say this happened so i culled the whole team and bought in new birds how do i know there not carriers and then the whole process would start again.

See now i'm getting paranoid wondering if the reason my best cock didnt peform this year was due to an unseen illness and nothing to do with me taking two rounds and messing up his moult .

[Guest strapper]

so if its virtually invisible in some birds how would a small team fancier like myself know if its in my loft?Ok birds get ill and disposed of but unseen to me others may have caught it and become carriers.Now i have a small team so when i breed youngsters am i going to breed more carriers?Lets just say this happened so i culled the whole team and bought in new birds how do i know there not carriers and then the whole process would start again.

See now i'm getting paranoid wondering if the reason my best cock didnt peform this year was due to an unseen illness and nothing to do with me taking two rounds and messing up his moult .

 

just like any other illness you dont know its there till its already taken hold.

paratyphoid should be called the silent assasin...you dont know when it will strike.

 

 

[Guest IB]

so if its virtually invisible in some birds how would a small team fancier like myself know if its in my loft?Ok birds get ill and disposed of but unseen to me others may have caught it and become carriers.Now i have a small team so when i breed youngsters am i going to breed more carriers?Lets just say this happened so i culled the whole team and bought in new birds how do i know there not carriers and then the whole process would start again.

See now i'm getting paranoid wondering if the reason my best cock didnt peform this year was due to an unseen illness and nothing to do with me taking two rounds and messing up his moult .

 

I think this is the danger here: hyping something up to be more common than it really is and scaring the living daylights out of ordinary fanciers. The closing paragraph is also a classic truth: folks might be a tad too quick to look for unseen illness as a reason (excuse?) for poorer than expected performance, rather than their management of the bird (s).

[Guest strapper]

 

I think this is the danger here: hyping something up to be more common than it really is and scaring the living daylights out of ordinary fanciers. The closing paragraph is also a classic truth: folks might be a tad too quick to look for unseen illness as a reason (excuse?) for poorer than expected performance, rather than their management of the bird (s).

 

with respect ib ..i dont think there is any use trying to ignore the amount of fanciers talking about this illness, and pms i get over this..this is evident on this and pigeon chat..look at some fanciers statements about it becoming more and more popular. this is the evidence it is becoming a bigger problem...along with more pmv infections.

the main problem is does each person who has it ,admit they having it?... which is very unlikely .

raising awareness can only be beneficial to fanciers .

 

but agree with the statement about some looking for illneses to blame on their performances rather than their own management.

[ch pied]

Gareth, you are right that De Weerd does not recommend vaccination, although elsewhere on his web site he seems to recommend a "blind" treatment with Parastop (antibiotic)

 

This conflicting advice from the best Belgian vets is very confusing. Dr Vandersanden does recommend vaccination after tests to determine whether or not a treatment is required beforehand.  (Its not easy to get suitable/reliable tests done in this country)

 

I went to a moot last week, & Jos Thone says he does vaccinate for Paratyphoid & vaccinates his youngsters TWICE for Paramyxo - once after weening & I think he said again after 4 weeks.

With ref to the first part of post , De-weerd is a man with a product to sell , ( parastop ) is this  the reason he does not advocate a vacc plan for paratypoid ?

De-weerd , has found himself in Court more that once with ref to his his product's , the last time he was on the verge of 3 month's inside along with the heavy fine's + cost's . He incurred .

On the subject of vacc fo paratypoid . i think the fancy has come to a x road's , devil you do , devil you don't , I will not condem a fancier for having a vacc plan , or not having one , that is their CHOICE  untill the power's that be decide otherwise . If it is your choice to vacc , at least give a pre-treatment to clean out any underlying thing's that maybe hidden , this is the only way to reduce the risk of an adverse reaction to the vacc , your VET will advise on the type of pre-treatment , or go Blind , which many fancier's have to do, as they have no access to an Avain Vet .

( YOUR CHOICE )

 

 

[Roland]

Don't for a minute Ronnie think two rounds will harm any fit and healthy birds. Mind can be, and most likely is, anything but Phar.