Roland

Incest breeding, say Father to Daughter, Mother to son, and / or visa versa is for building a pool of Blood / Genes full stop. The youngster of these birds are never, or shouldn'n't be for racing, but are to be out cross mated to aother completely non related birds. The youngster from these then carry the genes, which one hopes are good and worth retaining, are thus your racers. To take further youngster and pair back into that original pool is fool hardy. If the 'Racers' don't perform, then the parents are given another chance via mating to different mates some times. - Some are already mated to different mates straight of and records closely kept same season.

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Owen I believe you are what they / we / I would call in fact 'Line Breeding'. This means - for those that may not get the gist - that the ancestry is traced back from being bred down from 'Certain' birds. Of course, as you say, one comes to get a few closer relatives, which are tempting. Not talking religion, but the best example could well be the linageage of Jesus. All his ancestors tracing back to David then to Adam. A line. That's the reason why A. I would / did run 2 - 3 separate proven lines. This art of stockmanship is then made somewhat easier, but you must have the class birds to do this. (For stock sence is an art you are born with). Soon you will have unrelated, and hopefully proven stock to TEST against each other, then to mix in. The importance of the quality of the birds introduced is of an utmost of course. So it does, and will appear obviously, that many birds are traced back to certain birds, but not through incest breeding! Of course it will, but where many, I believe, go wrong is to think that it is Incest breeding that has done this and not 'Line Breeding. It is vastly different. I believe it is, as I stated, the out cross brings the vigour, and more importantly a good constitution, to the birds. Incest breeding will quickly irradicate these all important assets. I must this season. or next at least, set up a 'Bull System'. This again gives a pool of Blood / Gene foundations as Owen says. Yet though I bought in well this past month or so, most are of course untested as breeders. I will only have the ancestry to rely on, with more importantly that 'Gut Feeling' to go by.

Well to be truth you are right. However what is more frightening by far are those that should know better are still spouting out absolute rubbish without understanding. Seems as long as a name says, regardless in what format or terms they spout it out as 'Safe' etc. Sometimes it may be to impress, and sometimes, most with good intent. But a little knowledge can be dangerous as they say. Lets get real here; the 'Name' flyers and fanciers NEVER treat willie nillie. Never treat even unless certain and knowing exactly why and further the nigh all, if not all have good avian Vets looking and testing their birds regularly and certainly when ever there is a cause, or concern to! Salmonella and such CAN'T be diagnosed for instance via any droppings. They just don't show up, and one must often ask - at further cost - for testing of such! IT isn't, and never has been a thing that Vet undertakes to do on their’ own merit. You ask for 'Droppings to be tested' then that is what is tested, full stop. If you want, need further testing, then you have to pay for such and firstly you must ask for such!. Many are also, like Salmonella a 'Add On' to another illness or virus. If one can afford say a good Micro system for testing then surely that in it's self means A. They can afford a proper test when needed, B. that they can see for them selves the very need of proper testing when they realise that though much shows up, much more, and certainly more concerning things for treatment don't! Yet here we see day in day out advice given freely willy nillie without even seen the district let alone the loft... The bird ekk! What bird(s). Many illnesses are secondarily, and often like a parasite harder to diagnose. Simple, and let me assure you, not I or any one else can tell anyone what is wrong in their loft while sitting here. Yes something’s certainly will point or can lead you in the right direction FULL stop. And the palaver regards droppings. I'll will, and able to tell you this for sure, if the droppings are a real cause for concern, YOU won't need to ask anything about them for it will hit you as soon as you enter the loft, never mind 'Could Be's' YOU will know instantly that the bird(s) needs sorting big time. And the Vet telling why in detail and mention extra test like Bacterial etc. etc if you will…. Better than calling the vet, or having to return I’d say. In three sections I have three different sects of droppings. Of course I do! Some at the top shelving’s are directly aside a wire mesh letting in fresh air. Middle a lot more sheltered. the bottom shelves are directly above air coming in via the mesh. So air flow is different, warmth and wind temperature is different. So just how can they all be the same. Different feed / change, different droppings etc. etc.

Depends how far away the loft is that you have to collect from. If only a few miles etc. then let them out, have a open door every three days. Job done. they need to feel secure - and free to coming in and out as it suits, especially if you intend to race them. Freedom and secure brings on contentment. After a the simply reality of being able to break ANY pigeon is to let it like the new loft more and wanting to stay. No amount of time / eggs or young etc. matters a jot. That's all my eye. They will go if they are content with your set up, no two ways about that. Like those that fly of the top of the loft. And they will - like any pigeon on any system - only 'Race' to speak if they WANT to get home. First thing is creatig the desire for them wanting to be there. Being locked up doesn't help that. Yes place for an hour or two in Pannier on roof a couple of hours each day to have a look around. But that again is only for your peace of mind. Letting them walk in and out on their own time is the way to go. Still means you won't break them all of course, because they won't all wish to stay.

Well one needs a mate that's a dab hand at building them. Once cut and painted well - wiould soon be messed up of course, then once cut to size etc. soon be put together. But are smart to say the least. If you though aren't any good at building / woodwork, but able to do similar then the end results would be the same as far as the birds are concerned.

Thanks Ken.... but unfortunately it's Mac that has them to cross, mores the pity. Who knows Ken, he may send us down a couple of pairs to see how we get on with them lol ;D ;D

Incest breeding is done like on a Bull System to have, ATTAIN a Pool of Blood / Genes Full stop. Then the youngsters are outcrossed straight of for racing. Having 2 - 3 or more likewise bred, but completely different sets of Pools / Genes prolongs the bloods and adds Vigour to the youngsters. This also ensures that there is no more incest breeding from these Gene Pools. The youngster are out crossed continuosly and no incest is ever done after. Just the Pools / Genes foundations are used for 'Stock' etc. crossed or as before. The Racers are mated only via 'Out Crossing'! Most interest is taken then via the yearling matings. If the yearlings don't breed a good youngster first off, then they are changed straight away. Changing the mates may happen 2 - 3 times if the fancier has a particular feel or desire for those birds, whatever it may be. But then discarded as breeders. Some out crosses with produce great racers. Many others won't! But then if the stockman / fancier sees the detailed results of what lines are producing when crossed with such and such, they are keenly noted. Like wise the crosses that produce nowt, these are removed as breeders. Simple really, but to just incest breed for the sake of what one thinks they are told is good, or because so and so Top man does it is ludicriss to say the least. Like I always say 'Incest' breeding needs 2 - 3 questions to be answered and understood. Not least Why. Then How does one hope achieve to via. What stock and why!!! Then a little question like How can one produce, what it doesn't have? Or are the birds to be used in the Gene Pool good enough at a very high and good level. Yardsticks are needed constantly to improve.

The dentist pulls out a numbing needle to give the man a shot. 'No way! No needles. I hate needles' the patient said. The dentist starts to hook up the nitrous oxide and the man objects. "I can't do the gas thing. The thought of having the gas mask on is suffocating me!" The dentist then asks the patient if he has any objection to taking a pill. "No objection," the patient says. "I'm fine with pills." The dentist then returns and says, "Here's a Viagra." The patient says, "Wow! I didn't know Viagra worked as a pain killer!" "It doesn't" said the dentist, "but it's going to give you something to hold on to when I pull your tooth." CASH FOR CLUNKERS..........She qualifies IF MY BODY WERE A CAR... If my body were a car, this is the time I would be thinking about trading it in for a newer model. I've got bumps and dents and scratches in my finish, and my paint job is getting a little dull. But that's not the worst of it. My headlights are out of focus, and it's especially hard to see things up close. My traction is not as graceful as it once was. I slip and slide and skid and bump into things even in the best of weather. My whitewalls are stained with varicose veins. It takes me hours to reach my maximum speed. My fuel rate burns inefficiently. But here's the worst of it -- Almost every time I sneeze, cough or laugh, either my radiator leaks or my exhaust backfires. CASH FOR CLUNKERS..........she qualifies - How about You? Life after death... "Do you believe in life after death?" the boss asked one of his employees. "Yes, Sir." the new recruit replied. "Well, then, that makes everything just fine," the boss went on. "After you left early yesterday to go to your grandmother's funeral, she stopped in to see you. Two Woodpeckers. A Mexican woodpecker and a Canadian woodpecker were in Mexico arguing about which country had the toughest trees.. The Mexican woodpecker claimed Mexico had a tree that no woodpecker could peck. The Canadian woodpecker accepted his challenge and promptly pecked a hole in the tree with no problem. The Mexican woodpecker was amazed. The Canadian woodpecker then challenged the Mexican woodpecker to peck a tree in Canada that was absolutely 'impeccable' (a term frequently used by woodpeckers). The Mexican woodpecker expressed confidence that he could do it and accepted the challenge. The two of them flew to Canada where the Mexican woodpecker successfully pecked the so-called 'impeccable' tree almost without breaking a sweat. Both woodpeckers were now terribly confused. How is it that the Canadian woodpecker was able to peck the Mexican tree, and the Mexican woodpecker was able to peck the Canadian tree, yet neither was able to peck the tree in their own country ? After much woodpecker pondering, they both came to the same conclusion: Apparently, Tiger Woods was right, when he said, your pecker gets harder when you're away from home.

I see that there is next week sometime a program showing the terrible detrimental happenings from incest breeding. Seems now that the Kennel Club are even trying to get ALL dog micro chipped with a view of safe guarding and only allowing certain matings, and ALL out crossings. With them being the 'Watch dog' ... No pun intended lol. The trailer for those that saw were told a few distressing happings, and real bad consequences Yep same in all walks of life regardless how one hopes it to be different.

Own immunity. Simply put there Jimmy.

I'm impressed Paul. Just had to have a new front door. - Was going to put the old one on my loft front, complete with the letter box for pigeon posts like a former loft of mine lol. But the bloke ruined it getting it out, still there you go.. But any Double Glazing out fit will have off cuts and what not of 'Panel'. ( You will see them slung in to the skips). It is brill white of course. Yes glass at top for the light :-/ But I think your very much on the right track there.

Great!

Same as any thing used to kill the bad bacteria... or does one think that it can differeniate :-/

Bob asks ' ...............Tell me Roland, in what other competitive Hobby/Sport that Kids participate in, do they have to supply ALL their own equipment, They don't, it is supplied for them, by the clubs they join, be it after school activities or facilities run by the local authorities, out of the tax payers money. Not like it in pigeon racing, Loft, clock, baskets, etc. etc. all have to be obtained by some means or another, and that's before you even get the birds. Well must be different in your neck of the woods Bob, the Athletic, charges and have to buy own kitt. The soccor clubs charges and have to by own kitt. Same as all sports I know of here. The Fishing clubs... have to join, subs etc. and buy own kitt, and gear each time they go. Photagrathy, have to pay to join, subs, weekly dues and have to by own gear. The Tran' enthusiasts, same again. Golf, no need to go there eh!.... Sorry can't think of a single freebie ... only that as things stands now, the cheapest sport, and hobby is by far 'Pigeons'.

Murphy's' old lady had been pregnant for some time and now the time had come. He brought her to the doctor and the doctor began to deliver the baby. She had a little boy, and the doctor looked over at Murphy and said. 'Hey, Murph! You just had you a son,! 'Ain't dat grand, !!' Murphy got excited by this, but just then the doctor spoke up and said, 'Hold on! We ain't finished yet, !' The doctor then delivered a little girl. He said, 'Hey, Murph! You got you a daughter, !!!! She is a pretty lil ting, too....' Murphy got kind of puzzled by this and then the doctor said, 'Hold on, we aint got done yet, !' The doctor then delivered another boy and said, 'Murph, you just had yourself another boy, !' Murphy said to the doctor, 'Doc, what caused all of dem babies,?' The doctor said, 'You never know Murph, it was probably something that happened during conception.' Murphy said, 'Ah yeah, during conception.' When Murph and his wife went home with their three children, he sat down with his wife and said, 'Mama, you remember dat night that we ran out of Vaseline and we had to use dat dere 3-in-1 Oil.' She said, 'Yeah, I remember dat night...' Murph said, 'I'll tell you, ......it's a good ting we didn't use WD-40. A smile is a sign of joy. A hug is a sign of love. A laugh is a sign of happiness. And a friend like me? ?? Shitte, That's just a sign of good taste.!!

You mean your not allowed roly! my friend!!! Joyce told me she was begging you to go alone so she could have a days peace from you!!! ;D ;D Now with an post like that Pete I know you have been talking 'Womans' talk ... Not allowed to go? :-/ Then Joyce has been begging me to go! Yep sounds like you're rePeting' a woman lol ;D ;D ;D

Me not going. Had a great time Joyce and I last year, but Joyce says not going but I can. But no taste there as we do nigh everything together and wouldn't - have never been a a day away from each other, so won't be there. Maybe treat the birds to another 1/2 ounze of feed a day lol with the money saved.

I think Bob your' 'Last Post' post sums up why the RPRA have to act in this way! Simply for our own protection'. Every Club concern has built in rules to protect the members from themselves. Members decide Eek? :-/ Should have a say!? Members responcible etc. etc. :o Streuth the vast majority can even fill in a Ballot sheet! Won't even truddle of to a meeting IN their' own Best Interests' The Chosen delegate goes with the blessings and how the club wants to vote.... and comes back saying why they voted differently - often through commonsence. Gosh just look at the extra cost we will all be paying with the rising costs of feul alone to take our birds training! Feed is as cheap now - well certainly the Maples / Tic beans / Wheat and Barly as for 20 odd years! What one saves on a 25 K bag of Tic beans say will cover the costs of any RPRA rises alone. No wonder the RPRA and such have to have these rules iplemented. For as sure as eggs are eggs the members couldn't run a pee up in a ale house. They A. Would ballot vote, just whinge afterwards, and B. Never bother to attend meetings, just whinge afterwards etc. etc.

Yes Bob, like few others you have lost the plot when you bring up cheapness for the kids. That in it's self is a cheap shot and to my reckoning not very well thought out. We have to pay. What we have save this past month on the price of corn coming down alone more than pays any increase the RPRA have put up, indeed many folds. My 11 year old grand daughter costs more than a £5 a day, then her football, her Gymnatics, phone, play station etc. etc the 4 year old is costing 3 pound a day. Then .... A fiver eh! Get real it is nothing, and you, we all know it. Just a needless and silly moan that we are apt to do and are past masters at it I think!

You having a laff ent yer! Kids can't afford it. Gosh it because of the amount spent every day on the kids MANY can't afford to take up the sport. Gosh the postage stamps rise of cost alone will take up a ot of that rise. Get real, just what is getting cheaper each year? :-/ Nothing, the kids are first second and last and mostly expensive parnts 'Wanna be me's'! Our kids fleece the parents for £'s every day. A new Playstaion, games..... A play station alone would pay for their birds and season alone. Designer gear, hundreds of pounds. Video etc. etc. And to be perfectly honest Pigeons would be their' cheapest sport, and most worthwhile, but you won't convince ma of that, and kids will be too busy texting etc. to clean out a cage for starters.. Even playing for the local football team is a cost few can afford, YET do! Gosh a £5 year tag is lauhghable to the kids - I.e. Parents. many spend more than that a day on junk, Latest Tec Phones. And on and on we could go! Too expensive for the kids, get real! Besides the only thing we can do for them is to instill a liking for our game same as we got! Then hope after they have settled down and have a huge morgage and dependant kids etc. etc. the wife allows their feeble justification of spending a little on their own hobby and NOT every thing on the kids!

Our kids fleece the parents for £'s every day. new Playstaion games..... A play station alone would pay for their season. Designer gear, hundredsa of pounds. And to be perfectly honest Pigeons would be their cheapest sport. Even playing for the local footy team is a cost few can afford, YET do! Gosh a £5 year tag is lauhghable to the kids - I.e. Parents. many spend more than that a day on junk, Latest Tec Phones. And on and on we could go! Too expensive for the kids, get real! Besides the only thing we can do for them is to instill a liking for our game same as we got! Then hope after they have settled down and have a huge morgage and dependant kids etc. etc. the wife allows their feeble justification of spending a little on their own hobby and NOT every thing on the kids!

Two red neck hunters got a pilot to fly them to Canada to hunt moose. They managed to bag 6. As they were loading the plane to return, the pilot said the plane could only take 4 moose. The two good ol' boys objected strongly. "Last year we shot six. The pilot let us take them all and he had the same plane as yours." Reluctantly, the pilot gave in and all six were loaded. However, even under full power, the little plane couldn't handle the load and went down crashing in the woods. Somehow, surrounded by the moose bodies, Bobby Joe and Billy Bob survived the crash. After climbing out of the wreckage, Bobby Joe asked Billy Bob, "Any idea where we are?" Billy Bob replied, "I think we're pretty close to where we crashed last year."

Gosh what a palaver! Anyone would think thay have batter and stole a ole ladies purse. So what if it has gone up a mite. It's called inflation! Seems to me like the very chuntering that keeps and has kept us living in the world of Dot! Strueth. Membership of a golf course goes up £50 a throw, and £3 a round! Tell me just what past time, sport etc. -Photography perhaps for a spell ... but that to has now long gone. Yep sorry. I forgot going to watch a football match eh! ;D Let alone being a fan or support a team! The prices go up every season, shirts etc. and the cost of transport getting them. Here we are moaning about possibly a five per year- 2p flipping pence per week strueth. In real terms all feds should charge £160 and give you free birdage and RPRA membership. Then clubs would just have raised the cost of Secs’ fee, and postage / phone calls etc. And probably knock prize money on the head to boot. Would be a lot fiercer and better racing for starters. More challenging, more birds competing, and then more would send to the longer Fed races, which they don’t now because of costs etc. Gosh about time the Nationals did likewise, right across the board where ‘All’ section money would be divided equally between every section regardless of birds sent ... Gosh I bet the goal post could then be altered for better sections and better merits to be flown for as to now the weaker Locations are just fodder to bolster the better location lofts. Wouldn’t need to move lofts even lol. Won't happen! Why? Well because many would work it out that they will actually save £10 by sending just 6 or so each week.... which is about what many can afford. So 4p a week is too much again strueth!

Mine are dark.... but then I'm on Naturual so that is good. out plenty to nigh all the time. Fine that the birds ALWAYS go to and settle in the darkest compartments. Indeed return any and every chance they get to. Also the dark keeps them more settled and relaxed.