gareth you said i was being disrespectfull to the great flyers that dont train m8 i dont know any great flyers that dont train and any time there seen they have a basket in there car they must just be taking the baskets for a run eh i said 5 tosses are not enough for latebreds or youngbirds so i can only take it you think it is and inferd that they need to take a look at there stock and who said anything about hammering them down the road you did not i and if you are saying your dad did not believe in hard training he was at coldstream and kelso with the midweek club as i remember and anyone ive spoken to said he trained hard to but i stand corrected if you say he did not as for most members not being able to train there latebreds or youngbirds 20 to 30 12 to 20 mile tosses that may be be true of a few but many fanciers i know would rather spend 20 pound in the pub talking about what there going to do than putting 20 pounds of petrol in there car and trying to get there birds right imo if your trying to bring a young team of birds through you have to educate them so when they make a mistake they can work out how to correct it yes in the nice easy races you will get most home home but soon as they get a sticky one its a different ball game i try to be honest and tell the guys what works so they will not lose as many birds no ones trying to score points here just trying to tell the guys that are losing there latebreds why and how to fix it have good year gareth m8