Larry Lucas

Sorry, said I wasn't going to say anything else, but I have never heard of an entire loft being wiped out by Salmonella induced infection, unless it is a disease complex launched by Circovirus and accompanied by PMV, Herpesvirus, etc. Salmonella by itself would not typically leave such total destruction. Typically some young pigeons will be lost -- most often during the second round of breeding. Some youngsters will die in the nest. Occasionally the odd old bird will become septacaemic and die. Most birds actually recover from Salmonella infection. Again, the problem is birds becoming carriers and the intermitent shedding of the bacteria by these carriers repetitively infecting other pigeons and keeping the disease in the colony. In old birds they can look like a picture, but when you start stressing them by breeding, training and racing, full blown Paratyphoid raises its ugly head. On the mandatory reporting and resultant statistics: Knowing pigeon fanciers, I would venture to guess that less than 2% to 5% would report the disease when it surfaces in their lofts, even if reporting is required -- and that is probably a generous figure.

If antibodies were omnipotent, maternal or otherwise, then there would be no need to vaccinate humans, birds, or animals at all. But in fact, not all antibodies transfer, even when carried by the adult. And, given that some antibodies are temporary or non-efficient (note the annual need for vaccination for most issues in pigeons), wisdom would seem to call for vaccination -- at least if one desires to actually race their pigeons, exposing them to the primordial ooze of the racing pannier. Since the average fancier cannot currently measure antibodies of pigeons in the nest or in adult birds it would seem inadvisable to do otherwise. I.e., sometimes common sense must weigh in. Good discussion, but I think my last on this issue as we seem to be spinning in circles and my time is very limited.

Hi Bart. There is a growing consensus that Circovirus is the primary culprit behind YBS. Earlier it was assumed to be Adenovirus which opened the door to massive multiplication of Ecoli leading to vomiting, etc., etc. In some areas the testing for Circovirus now used is more sensitive and CV is now more readily discovered. The good news/bad news I read in a recent article indicates that while there is still nothing that can prevent CV, subsequent generations show antibodies to CV perhaps indicating the ability of a loft (assuming good immune systems) to have better resistance to the virus. So yes, I would suspect that in young bird racing this virus may be at least part of the problem for losses. And if the F1 old birds after the initial exposure are lost in large numbers, it could be a factor there as well. Of course, this is speculation on my part.

If that is the advice Gord gave you it is valuable information. He probably told you some avian vets here feel the risk associated with Circovirus outweights off-label practice, but on the pragmatic side Colombovac is not the primary supplier of PMV vaccine here. I am aware of one astute medical person who uses Colombovac who recommends in-nest injection at no later than three weeks old due to the problem of Circovirus and YBS. If this is an item of high concern for you could contact Colombovac and inquire if antibody rejection is absolute or merely potential during early vaccination. It is entirely possible they are not aware of the early link of Circovirus, the destruction of the Bursa and onset of PMV and you would be doing them a favor by inquiring. About eight years ago I accepted five young pigeons from a fancier in another State for a local futurity race. The gentleman had a good reputation and the birds arrived looking quite healthy. I vaccinated for PMV and Salmonella and within a month young pigeons began dropping like flies, including all from that fancier. I took the birds to the university lab to be posted. Circovirus, PMV, Paratyphoid, Herpesvirus, etc. was the result. That fancier then confessed to me he had ongoing problems with Circovirus. Even though I vaccinated, the damage was done. If anyone has experienced this they will do whatever they can within good veterinary practice to avoid it. Word to the wise.

Vic, it may be time to find a good avian vet. It will cost a few pounds but save you a lot of groping in the dark. Send Dr. Gord an email. He is very helpful. I'll pm you his email address.

Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis. Your observation that eliminating a carrier state fails "basic biology" is misplaced as it does not take into account the manner in which ST bacteria function after the bird is initially challenged. A kind of ad hominum approach to bacteriology in this case would be a mistake. The process of using Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to clear the carrier state of ST v. C has been proven repeatedly in clinical and ad hoc studies. While this procedure does not carry a 100% guarantee, it is effective. A simple Google search will turn up more than a few published studies if you are interested and do not have access to journals in a university veterinary library. Or email Dr. Gordon Chalmers in Canada, Dr. Wim Peters in South Africa, or Dr. Rob Marshall in Australia. They probably won't mind answering your questions about ST, the carrier state, and the process I have described. For what it is worth.

Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis. Your observation that eliminating a carrier state fails "basic biology" is misplaced as it does not take into account the manner in which ST bacteria function after the bird is initially challenged. A kind of ad hominum approach to bacteriology in this case would be a mistake. The process of using Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to clear the carrier state of ST v. C has been proven repeatedly in clinical and ad hoc studies. While this procedure does not carry a 100% guarantee, it is effective. A simple Google search will turn up more than a few published studies if you are interested and do not have access to journals in a university veterinary library. Or email Dr. Gordon Chalmers in Canada, Dr. Wim Peters in South Africa, or Dr. Rob Marshall in Australia. They probably won't mind answering your questions about ST, the carrier state, and the process I have described. For what it is worth.

The man is one of the leading avian veterinarians in North America. Regardless, if you will do a little more reading you will discover within ST there are many sub-strains. For our purposes statistics from the broad category of S. typhimurium are not really applicable, only that of v. Copenhagen. The last article I read indicated from 1982 to 1996 only 715 cases of ST in humans were reported in the USA, of those only a few were var. Copenhagen and these were associated with other more significant health issues such as very low IgA or other immune system disorders. But for the sake of argument if all infections from ST including v. C are averaged at 51 per year for those years, I think you will agree that out of 265 million people in 1996 the infection rate is not even close to being statistically significant. I believe more people were struck by lightening in 1996 than were infected by all known strains of ST. If we only look at v. C it becomes silly. Unless there is an odd situation in the UK I suspect the statical significance ratio applies there as well. You will note that I previously wrote, "under normal circumstances" var. Copenhagen is not transmittable. If one has significant health issues associated with the immune system it is not wise to keep pigeons or any other animal, for that matter. The whole matter is not a reportable issue here and no doubt will remain that way. On the matter of Baytril: if you search what I have posted here, on Pigeon Chat and Pipa, you will find that I normally state (but did not here) that blind treatment with antibiotics is normally a bad idea and that an antibiotic screening by a lab is preferable. In this case the strain of ST v. C that is resistant to Baytril is not widespread and treating for a full fourteen days will not pose a problem as it is under-treatment that significantly contributes to the build-up of specific antibiotic resistance. If one does not have access to a lab or a competent avian vet and one's birds display all the standard symptoms of a full-blown paratyphoid infection, it is best to "blind" treat with the product that holds the highest level of potential to resolve the issue -- in this case, Baytril. My veterinarian advised me to treat all new pigeons to my loft with the 14 days of Baytril and vaccination on the 7th day -- without bothering with labs. Given his expertise in the field, that is precisely what I do. Just another opinion, and I am not suggesting anyone violate laws within your own country or follow veterinary practice that is not acknowledged by animal medical practices in your own country.

Jimmy, you are quite right! Of course we all do this, don't we? I wipe the needle with a cotton ball drenched in alcohol between jabs or slosh it around in a container of alcohol between birds, but you are dead right -- it would be best to use a different needle with each bird. But the last time I vaccinated it was over 100 birds -- seemed to take forever.

The antibodies in some pigeons can help them hold their own potential infection at bay, but the antibodies cannot prevent the carrier from shedding the bacteria. Not all exposed pigeons become carriers, but a bird is a carrier will infect other pigeons at some point. It seems to happen most often during the second round of eggs during breeding season.

Jimmy, yes, any pigeon that is cured of the carrier state can be re-introduced to Salmonella if an annual booster vaccination is not done after the initial cure, or if the vaccine does not work. It is not a 100 percent guarantee, but it is more effective than anything else that is currently available. Quite a few years ago I inadvertently introduced a paratyphoid infection into my lofts when I brought in some new breeders. They had been vaccinated for everything (so I was told) so after a few weeks I introduced them to the breeding loft. They looked picture perfect. Guess what happened during the second round of eggs?. So I ran the entire flock through the process again. These days any new bird to my loft is quarantined, treated for 14 days with Baytril and vaccinated no matter who I get the bird from. No problems since. Works for me, anyway. Others do it differently.

IB, that is the statement to me by the head avian veterinarian at the University of Minnesota. That is his observation about the matter in the USA and pigeons. Perhaps it is different in the UK, but I doubt it. I would grant that an exception might exist for someone who has eliminated the bacteria from his/her loft; keeps biohazard protocol; does not race; does not introduce new pigeons, and does not allow anyone into their lofts who keeps pigeons. If you race the bacteria will be introduced to your loft at some point -- but it is probably already there is a latent state. Unless someone develops a super pigeon, every loft will deal with cases of paratyphoid, herpes virus, adenovirus, etc., etc. if they race pigeons. Regarding your droppings test: such a test is better than nothing, but it will only show the bacteria when the birds are actually shedding the microorganism due to stress, other illness, etc. Post-mortem is much more accurate as is blood test when illness is evident. I find it very odd that paratyphoid is a reportable disease in the UK as Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen is not transmittable to humans under normal circumstances. The association of avian veterinarians in the USA only notes one bacterium common to pigeons that holds significant potential to infect humans: Chlamydia. Certain avian flu viruses hold the potential, but it has been demonstrated by double blind studies at the University of California Davis that pigeons are not a good vector for most avian flu viruses. Perhaps you breed superbugs in the UK! ;D ;D On the precautionary side as you note above, I would suggest that any fancier wear a mask in their loft no matter how healthy their pigeons may be due to problems associated with pigeon dust (pigeon fancier's lung). I don't think extreme precautionary measures are necessary as pigeons do not shed the bacterium continuously, and even when they do Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen is not a significant health risk to humans. Vic, I would disagree that the problem was introduced by vaccinating as the problem preceded any vaccination mandate. If you want to find a culprit on which to pin problems like ybs look to Circovirus I and II.

Vic, yes, all lofts have paratyphoid/salmonella. Avian veterinarians here have demonstrated that you can actually eliminate the carrier state in pigeons by a full 14 days of Baytril in conjunction with Sal-Bac vaccination. Vaccination with Sal-Bac should take place about the 7th day of the treatment with Baytril -- not before. Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is the ONLY drug that will eliminate the carrier state of salmonella in pigeons. It can be controlled by a preseason round of something like Parastop followed by vaccination, but this will not eliminate the on-going carrier problem.

IB, sorry, but I did not write the article -- no smoke screen there. My PhD is not in genetics, but Dr. Gibson is somewhat familiar with the subject -- he is the author of "Genetics of Pigeons" and other journal articles on the subject. He and W.F. Hollander have done some of the best work on pigeon genetics for the fancy. I think if you re-read what I posted you will find he is describing what occurs within pigeons genetically to account for the mosaic pattern. The information he provides seems to suggest that a crossover fusion is at the heart of the matter. For what it is worth, people are free to take it or leave it.

I agree it runs counter to common sense, but here is an article by Dr. Gibson on bipaternity (two sperm cells with one egg) and the production of the mosaic pattern: Bipaterity sperm Mutations by Dr. Lester Paul Gibson I think in order to form a basis of understanding for the possible formation of what we call a mosaic pigeon; we must start at the cellular level. At one phase of the cell division, there occurs a different type of cell division from mitosis. This type of cell division is called REDUCTION DIVISION which forms the germ cells or gametes. This formation of gametes is known as maturation. We know that normally a new individual is started by the union of two gametes, a sperm cell and an egg cell. Sperm cells are formed by two cell divisions. Two primary spermatocyte chromosomes become paired closely in what is known as synapsis. Each splits in reduction division so that now there are four chromatids (a tetrad). These separate loosely and one from each dyad goes to each end of the cell and now the cells contain only 1 chromosome of each pair. The other two spermatocytes (the two not used above) divide by mitosis and form spermatids. These form sperm without further division. If during the reduction division part of each exchange sections with the other; we have what is known as a chiasma. THIS IS WHAT WE CALL A CROSSOVER. In the formation of the egg from potential egg cells, a similar series of events takes place. The only difference is that instead of the process producing 4 gametes (like the sperm production), three of the four are normally small and disintegrate. We call these POLAR BODIES. The fourth gets all of the cytoplasm and becomes a mature egg. Each of these cells will have one chromosome of each pair, the difference is that only one gets the cytoplasm and the others do not get any. If during this process instead of only one remaining, one of the others (a polar body) should also get some of the cytoplasm or the division is not complete and the polar body does not deteriorate; then we get a dual cell egg (a bipolar egg). In this case, each of the two poles may now become fertilized by a different sperm (bipaterity). Depending upon the size and viability of each; the area of mosaicism may be half or somewhat less than half of the resultant organism. Chromosomal aberrations occur in several ways but lets reserve our discussion to those that may produce mosaics. One type is called non-disjunction in which during cell division, both chromosomes go to the same end of the cell and thus producing a cell without a chromosome and one with both. This is not a theory because it is known to happen. Certain resultant combinations do not produce viable embryos and thus do not live and others instead of producing diploids may produce triploids, tetraploids, or monoploids for certain chromosomal pairs. Work with drosophila flies has proven that they can and do occur. Another type is called translocation (another crossover mechanism). Another type is called segmental interchange (a double crossover mechanism). Another type is called deletion (a mutational mosaic mechanism). It has been stated that a cell with three chromosomes cannot live. That has been patently proven to be false in many insect and plant genetic tests and manipulation results. It is known to even occur in a number of human cases in the sex chromosomes in which individuals may have the sex configurations of XXX, XXY, XXXY, XXYY, or even XXXXY. Somatic mosaics can occur anytime after fertilization of the egg. If early in the development, there may be near 50% of the organism or if later only a few cells. Let's consider the bipaterity sperm theory. If the sperm fertilize the egg at or nearly at the same time you would get a configuration somewhat like below: __ __ __ __ _________ Sperm A ------------------------------------------ Egg --- --- --- --- -------------------- Sperm B As the egg starts dividing the Sperm A and the egg would produce cells that become the right half and Sperm B and the egg would produce the left half. In the case of a bird like the half black homozygous Chinese Owl/Sooty Blue bar hetero Baldhead Roller reared by Marvin Lee; the above would work better if we have a bipolar body egg or if you prefer a Siamese egg. _____ ____ _________ Owl sperm for black ---------------------------------- Egg Owl black ----------------- --------------- Egg Owl blue bar --- --- --- ----------------- Roller sperm for Bh Blue bar This would allow one side to produce the homo Owl side and the other to produce the hetero Owl/Roller side. I have the mounted bird. Dr. Hollander assured me that it was a waste of money to have it mounted and preserved because everyone will just say it is a hoax. The Owl side is completely Owl with all the Owl attributes including the pantaloons and the Roller side distinctly Roller with the distinct hetero Baldhead marking. Even measurements of the beak show one side Owl and the other Roller. I said the bird is question would have the brown (or even dun if it proved to be dun) parts female and the black parts male. That is a given because the traits are sex-linked. Keep up the good work. Dr. Lester Paul Gibson

If I understand the mosaic issue, it is produced when a sperm cell from two different cocks fertilize the egg at the same time.

David, I read this series of posts today -- brilliant! Let me make one observation, if I might. The blue cock you rescued learned some very bad habits when he was out on his own for a few years. You note that he has spent a number of nights out. In all probability he is returning to some bridge or clock tower where he had a former mate, or is returning to another loft where he received care. He will pick up bacteria or viruses there and bring illness to your other birds. In all probability, that is where he contracted the illness you treated. You will not be able to break this habit and he will "teach" your young birds this bad habit. I would suggest you not let him out of the loft with your other young pigeons. Also, pigeons are very flock oriented even though they may pick at one another in the loft. You have room for at least a dozen or so birds, and they will be much happier flocking up and flying in larger numbers. You no doubt have learned that they will begin "traveling" (routing, ranging) at some point -- flying away in a flock for an hour or two. That is the point when most racing fanciers begin to road train them helping them to quickly return home when released for a race. I don't know how much you have read, or if you have watched videos about the sport of racing pigeons. If not, perhaps some of the participants on this forum could loan you a few books and videos to help in your advanced training. Good job. Vic, nice to see you are still your old self. Larry Lucas

Hello Vic, It is only a guess, but I think they will find either streptococcus or circovirus -- perhaps both. Sorry you are having difficulty with the birds. Your flock will recover and develop immunities, but some good prospects will be lost. The way it is. Don't think it has anything to do with vaccinating for PMV -- young bird sickness is now closely tied to circovirus. Different issues entirely. Cheers, good to see you are still around. Larry

"Yellow" is a dilute of red, but Jack Barkel in South Africa has bred birds he calls "lemons" that are as close to yellow as I have seen. The ones I saw at a friends loft did not race well, but they were an interesting color aproximating the actual color of yellow.

The collapse of the bridge was a real tragedy -- we lost a friend in the accident. But for some half-wit grubbing news reporter to imply the collapse was due to pigeon droppings betrays crass ignorance of the worst kind. It was poor engineering and poor maintenance that led to the collapse of the bridge. People failing to do their jobs properly and politians and bureaucratic bean-counters refusing to spend what was necessary to ensure public safety cost the life of our friend and the lives of the others who died. People are at fault -- not pigeons.

Steve, best of luck to you and Phillip! Larry

Piperazine is a pig wormer used for years to deal with roundworms in pigeons. In recent years it has lost its effectiveness for roundworms and was never effective for other types of worms. It does not work well. You would be better off to throw it in the dust bin and pick up some moxidectin. Far more effective for several different kinds of worms and safe for the birds.

Vic, you have a photo! I thought you were an old curmudgeon and you are a young man ;D! ;D ;D

To make my point, I just noticed that "AdSense", "Googlebot" and "Yahoo! Bot" are logged on this forum. These are automated internet bots, not human members. While it may be Google and Yahoo! that are sending out their bots in a non-malicious way to gather useful information, it points out that this forum is also vulnerable to internet bots. Do not click on any link sent to you in an email from this site. Word to the wise. ??)

Steve Patrick has done nothing wrong and he is correct, there is nothing amiss with his computer. It is the old website and he has done everything within reason to sort it out. Thieves and pornographers are skillful at sending out internet "bots" to find discussion forums that will allow them in to do their activities. These thieves and pornographers prepare an email announcing that you have a "PM" and send it out to those on the list. These emails mimic exactly a legitimate PM notice. They include a link in the email to reply and retrieve the supposed message. If you click the link (NEVER click a link in an email!), it will take you to a fake log-in page that imitates the original where you will give away your password to them. Since most people use the same log-in name and password for all their accounts, they will attempt then to use spyware to invade your computer, discover your accounts (including banking) and do some financial damage. Steve has done everything he can and is not at fault in any way. Visit his new website, http://www.patrickbros.be, and do not answer any emails from the old website. Do not click on any link in those emails from the old site. Better yet, buy a Macintosh computer -- a lot less problems. ;D