Larry Lucas

Never wrong to ask people to validate things, Roland. Perhaps it has more to do with "how" they are asked and the tone in which the question is put forth. If I ever became a famous flyer (fat chance, that) and some Johnny-come-lately got in my face demanding this and that -- well, I'd probably tell them to sod off and so would friends. When a person does well and feels "I've finally paid my dues" and someone tries to drag them down all the while claiming, "My motives are pure-- and they should answer to the fancy." Well, you get my drift. Perhaps it is more a matter of common respect being absent than someone's head being so big they can't get through a door.

Bad sportsmanship seems alive and well. Sounds like it is overdue to petition the national organization to draft requirements about clubs, feds, etc. If the national organization arbitrarily sets all boundries, would that help?

[continued] Ian, I agree with the basics of much of what you say. I just have difficulty seeing it as a major problem and the way Roland describes it seems disconnected from reality. I think there are much bigger problems in the sport than this and that problem is found in the local clubs.

Ian, I understand what you say above but it truth, like the poor, those who twist the truth for gain, or at the very least are skillful in the way they package and market their "product" have always been with us and always will be with us. Your example of a website: some people are simply more skillful in marketing -- and websites rise and fall like the weather. Just consider Pipa of a few years ago and Pipa of today. But, I post here because I like some of the discussion and most of it is helpful to a fancier. I like the other forums as well. As an outsider looking into these discussions it appears to me that when someone does well and attempts to sell a few birds it is assumed they are crooked as a dog's hind leg. Any form of commercial interest is deemed tainted by definintion. Sometimes that is so, many times it is not. I stopped buying the Squills yearbook because it was nothing but advertisements that stretched the imagination! Sitting in my home here if one believed all of these ads the UK has a dozen champions in very village and hamlet. ;D The point is, no one believes these exaggerations, and in the quest to unmask the crooks it seems everyone is labeled a crook. Making an honest profit is not evil, but the ancient phrase caveat emptor is always wise. Just an observation. Roland, to be honest these cries of fraud and the poor, innocent, deceived, abused fancier have been around as long as discussion forums have been in existence. Nothing new there. But the real reason most fanciers pack it in has nothing to do with fanciers who feel they are untouchable because of fame and everything to do with the conduct of the nasty snipping gits in local clubs who are not held to account for their bad conduct; difficulty maintaining birds in communities with restrictions against pigeons and the demands of family and work, and finally local clubs not opening membership to newcomers. I would say the first reason I list is the main one. Just the way I see it.

Sorry, Roland, I don't get your point. I see points made on all sides of every discussion. Perhaps things are different on my side of the pond, but as I read these forums I don't see the kind of "class warfare" you are describing. Wasn't your Grandfather the late great Alf Baker? Now there is a great name that attracted admirers and knockers alike. How does this discussion relate to his good success and good reputation? He was honored for his accomplishments and I see the same thing happening for those who succeed today. There are always those who "kiss up" to the successful and hang onto their coattails and those who feel compelled to knock the successful. No one is above criticism but fair is fair, wouldn't you agree? It seems that as soon as someone is successful the knockers and detractors come out in force. What a pity, and poor sportsmanship to boot. Honor to whom honor is due, even if it is fleeting.

IB, thanks for the apology -- that is big of you and I appreciate it. As people from numerous countries post here, I think you would agree that it is not the responsibility of non-UK people to find out what is, or is not, legally permitted in veterinary care in the UK. It is the responsibility of local fanciers to know their own laws and restrictions and abide by them -- and to seek out proper veterinary care. I would hope you would also agree that what I have posted above is "safe and ethical" as it stems from consultations with avian veterinarians and university research medical professionals. As a pragmatic matter, and not to insult any good veterinarian, it is also true that pigeon fanciers in general know more about the diseases and care of pigeons than the average veterinary practitioner. Unless their vet is an avian specialist or a pigeon fancier, more often than not they must inform the dog or horse vet as to what should be done and which tests should be ordered. A forum such as this one; Pigeon Chat, and Alberta Classic provides valuable information on such things.

Pantex Holland. Fantastic liquid vitamins. Actually, I find all the Pantex Holland B.V. products outstanding and top quality.

If you read the posts above you will discover Parastop was never discussed as a vaccine. It is an antibiotic and in one of the posts I noted the "family" of antibiotics to which it belongs. If there is confusion about this, it appears to be your part. You will also note that I am not prescribing, but describing what works and recommending a proven approach that is in the right case in the best interest of the birds -- an entirely different approach, I think you would agree. If you wish to keep pigeons and not race them and practice biohazard protocol, then a non-medical approach such as you advocate is a good way to go. But if one is interested in exchanging birds, buying in new birds to the colony, racing pigeons, transporting them with other pigeons, having fanciers into your loft wearing the shoes they use in their own loft, etc., then it is naive to think occasional medically proven support for the pigeons is unnecessary. You will note a leading veterinarian in this discussion concurs. Antiobiotics properly utilized at the right time and for the right reasons have their place, as do other medicines. Randomly using them on hearsay and uninformed advice is not wise -- but advocating a non-medical "anti-medicine" approach that is not scientifically proven is not merely ill-advised, but often cruel to the birds that we are asking to function in an equally non-natural event: pigeon racing. I have neither the time or intention of getting into a "tit-for-tat" discussion with you about proven and safe medical treatment of racing pigeons. I could be mistaken but it appears you are part of the "anti-antibiotics" brigade. If that is your perspective, I wish you well.

Baytril was banned in the USA in 2005 from use in poultry. Pigeons are not classified as poultry. Periodically this happens with a number of drugs as they are abused by farmers, ranchers, and food producers i.g., Corid (amprolium, a coccidiostat). But on occasion they come back on the market, as did Corid. Enrofloxacin is readily available and is far cheaper than the brand name Baytril. Recent study shows that Baytril can cause cartilage damage in some classes of young developing animals (dogs, etc), but NOT in pigeons. The treatment of sick pigeons or carrier pigeons for Salmonella is not considered prophylactic but disease erradication. For what it is worth.

van Breeman pigeons are Desmet-Matthijs based: middle distance.

Mark, it has been quite some time since I used Parastop and the last time I used it was for a pre-breeding treatment. I haven't heard from anyone else about the ybs connection, but if true it would certainly be a blessing.

Tony, PrimaLac is available in the UK from Dave Hawkins. You can contact him at Hwkyhawkins@aol.com

Vic asked that the email from Dr. Gordon Chalmers, DVM be posted here. Gord would like to preface this by saying the advice is directed to Vic's situation only and may not apply to your own loft. Also, he asked that it be noted some recent changes have been made to SalBac to make it safer and some of the cautions below may not apply.

Norfloxacin is the active ingredient in Parastop. It is in the same "family" of drugs as ciprofloxacin hydrochloride (Cipro) and enrofloxacin (Baytril).

Mark, sorry if I offended. It was an attempt at a good-natured ribbing. CB radio -- now there is a blast from the past. Also, I didn't read where you recommended Henk to Vic, but I agree he is a good choice. Your suggestion in another of Parastop is also a good one -- it is used quite a bit in Europe for Paratyphoid.

Norfloxacin is the active ingredient in Parastop. It is in the same "family" of drugs as ciprofloxacin hydrochloride (Cipro) and enrofloxacin (Baytril).

Odd that, from someone who calls themself "Superstar"! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Vic is on a good path with good advice from Dr. Gord. Hang in there, Vic, good days are ahead.

you can purchase sterile desolving sutures online, which includes a surgical needle. But I normally use white cotton sewing thread with a sewing needle. Flush the wound with hydrogen peroxide and wet the sewing thread and needle with alcohol. These cotton sutures can be clipped at the knot later and removed with a tweezer.

The birds will still have bloom on their feathers. If I were in your spot I would still wear a mask, loft coat and shoes, and shower after spending a lot of time with the birds. Just another thought.

Tony, dead right! Streptococcus Bovis can give exactly the same symptoms as Paratyphoid, and Baytril is not the drug of choice. It takes a antibiotic like Tetracycline (or others) to do the job -- although there is about a 40% resistance to Tetracycline. Lab tests and antibiotic screening is suggested.

Here is the URL for the air cleaner that can be built if you are handy. http://www.fountainclan.com/wood/Air%20Cleaner.html I think it would be good to vent the exhaust side of the unit to the outside of the loft through a duct or vent.

Your scenario certainly presents like Paratyphoid. Fortunately, culling our proven breeders is no longer necessary as the first resort. If the bacteria screening shows its effectiveness, we can treat with an Enrofloxacin class of drugs (Baytril, Cipro), cure the bird and nip the potential carrier state in the bud. The only time I would cull a good breeder these days is if the ST strain it carried was not sensitive to Baytril -- and even then if it was an outstanding breeder I would treat with Parastop prior to breeding and let it breed a round or two. If its youngsters from the first nest died, I would cull it then. Just another opinion and another way of doing things. By the way, I would only experiment with this in a separate breeding pen away from my breeder loft.

The open concept loft will help. If you have a few quid laying around here is a devise that might help as it removes 98% of five micron particles and 85% of all particles as small as one micron. If five micron particles are removed that is extremely helpful in preventing PFL -- removing smaller particles than that is a bonus. I am building a new loft soon and I will build one of these for each enclosed section. Somewhere on the web is a free plan for building one and the HEPA filters are available from woodworking supply houses. http://www.amazon.com/708620B-AFS-1000B-Filtration-Electrostatic-Pre-Filter/dp/B00004R9LO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1222363130&sr=8-8

Too much credit to me, Vic. Dr. Gord is the man!

Vic, check your PM. Forwarded email there for you.