Larry Lucas

Regardless, it appears 1/2 ml injected intermuscularly for ten days cured hawks of PMV-1. It if also works on the PMV strains affecting pigeons some good stock birds could be saved. Or, we could put our PMV infected birds out for the hawks to take and hope it infects them! ;D ;D

It would help -- unless you burn down your loft! ;D

I would concur with Jimmy. Those I know who have used lime regularly had more problems with Paratyphoid. Coincidence? Possibly, but an acidic environment is always to be preferred, in my opinion.

Here is a link to an interesting article. Apparently Potassium Arsenite is used in the Middle East to cure PMV-1 in hawks. I wonder if it is applicable to the strains of PMV found in pigeons? I asked a veterinarian and will post the info here if I get a response. http://priory.com/vet/falcons.htm

Jimmy, that would be a safe assumption.

IB, to add a thought: if fanciers cannot afford something like PrimaLac, yoghurt is certainly better than nothing and unless the birds have high levels of ecoli it will certainly benefit them. But because of the lactose, too much too often could produce loose droppings.

IB, I think it is true that only partial conversion occurs in the production of yoghurt from milk. Homemade yoghurt has more of the beneficial bacteria, but for reasons of taste and palatability commercially produced products have far less helpful bacteria and far more sugars and lactose. For our purposes a product that is avian based is probably far more effective. I know by experience that PrimaLac is.

Hi IB, PrimaLac has five live bacteria and all are avian specific. If you go to http://primalac.com the university trials and studies on the product should be listed. The poultry studies are most instructive. I have heard good things about FlightPath, but I really don't know anything about it. When I learned about PrimaLac from Dr. Gord I used it. Within two days my birds had droppings like little marbles. It employs an exclusionary method. Several layers of "good" bacteria line the intestines, etc. to form a "wall" of layers of microorganisms that make it difficult for salmonella and ecoli to reach the intestine walls. That is its value, as I understand it. In addition, it makes the lower GI tract acidic, which is also hostile to ecoli and salmonella. For what it is worth.

Vic, the link to the subject is still on the main forum, and can be accessed from there. Nothing is lost, but it is now accessable from two areas of the overall forum. Actually, a better situation for those who are new.

At one teaspoon per gallon PrimaLac can be used daily, if desired. I use it daily during breeding season as young pigeons develop beautiful feather. I discovered this when reading a university study on the use of PrimaLac with Bob White Quail chicks. Another benefit is good bacteria are excreted into the loft in the droppings creating a hostile environment for Salmonella. Thanks to Dr. Gord Chalmers for this tip. While yoghurt contains active bacteria that is helpful to the birds, the lactose can produce loose droppings. In addition, the sugars can be counterproductive if a problem with ecoli exists as these bacteria feed on the sugars.

Good luck, Vic.

If you mean seeing a brown Jacobin, the second URL I list above shows photos of them.

As an outsider looking in, this post has wisdom. It is far better to get a diagnosis from a qualified Vet or lab. Otherwise, it is at best an educated guess. Costs a little more, but worth every penny.

Chlamydia is a bacteria; candida as well as thrush are fungi; canker is protozoal. I understand Canniston cream is a feminine hygiene product for yeast infection with an active ingredient of Clotrimazole: an antifungal/yeast agent that works against candida, not Chlamydia. Metronidazole is also used for women's yeast infections, but it is also antiprotozoal as well -- metronidazole is commonly used to treat pigeons for canker. Canniston might be effective for thrush, but as a cream that has other ingredients might not be something you want to squeeze down a pigeon's throat. Neither Clotrimazole nor Metronidazole are effective against Chlamydia in pigeons. Doxycycline is the way to go for Chlamydia in pigeons. For what it is worth.

Beautiful birds. I would love to see the stencil pattern used enough in racing pigeons that the athletic and homing faults could be bred out, leaving beautiful racers that compete well.

Mine were quite tall, bigger than racers. Have a look here: http://www.mts.net/~barj/pic2008.htm http://www.mts.net/~barj/latest.htm For a few years many fanciers used them as hawk deterents. I found that after about a month the hawks figured it out.

As a child I had fancy pigeons. About seven years ago I had a pair of brown Jacobins. I put them on the loft roof when the pigeons were exercising. With their big hoods the hawks thought they were owls and stayed away -- at least for a while. Scared the droppings out of the birds when I first put them into the loft. They all rushed to the top perches -- three and four to a perch to avoid the "owls" on the floor! They soon figured out these were just lambs in wolves clothing.

Good job, Vic. When they are finished with the treatment four or five days of probiotics will be an immense help.

Those Satinettes cannot feed their young -- beaks are too small. There is an older variety with longer beaks that can feed their own young. They make good droppers, from what I hear.

Beautiful young pigeons. Are they all related? They all have that certain look.

Ian, there are quite a few grain suppliers on this side as well, but most of them are smaller businesses who buy their grains from brokers and they blend the mixes themselves. Most of the brokers probably don't even know where what they are selling goes. Purina might be an exception to that. Is anyone illegitimately making a profit, gouging fanciers when it is not necessary, or are they following market costs and passing them on to the consumer? If they are providing a good product at fair value, do they owe the sport more than that? Finding a provider who gives good value and service is a blessing in-and-of-itself, whether they give anything else to the sport or not, I would think. Here if the company does not provide good value they are soon undercut by someone who will -- good old cut-throat capitalism! ;D ;D However, many of these small companies provide supplies for one loft races, etc. in exchange for the advertising exposure. Quid Pro Quo always helps raise market share. I think halting the decline of the sport could be better served by other things instead of a pigeon fraternity form of redistribution of the wealth. A few fanciers in Arizona approached the public school and offered to set up a small loft as a school project. It went over very well indeed. The national organization could hire a Public Relations Director -- much more value to that than to a General Director. The ARPU here hired a Washington lobbiest to champion legislative causes that affect the sport. It has been worth every penny. We might not like to think about it because of the implications, but paramutual betting on one loft races could inject a great deal of money into the grassroots level of the sport. For example, in Minnesota the casinos gave large monetary grants to local non-profit groups to improve various sports. Paramutual betting with a mandated percentage going to the sport (much like horse racing and charities) could raise the profile of the sport and provide local level interest. As I suggested above, all it requires is having the right leadership in the right chairs.

Ian, the problem I see is there is no monolithic entity that is receiving all this money. There are thousands and thousands of small businesses and individuals trying to squeeze out a few extra coins to keep the wolf away. Most of the commercial individuals are small potatoes indeed. Even the large companies are few and far between and pigeon related services in those cases are not a major source of income for them -- if at all. For example, Bayer, the producer of medicines for animals and mankind. It is only a happy accident that Baytril works with pigeons and that doesn't factor into the financial bottom line of Bayer. Small businessmen and individuals trying to sell a few things that fanciers need or want. Where do they factor into the scenario? Now, there are many categories. What about the larger breeding studs and the international grain suppliers? Follow the money, some of it is not local.

Over $23,000,000.00 USD for the United States alone, Ian. But on a per person basis not much incentive for those who might like to bleed some off for themselves. We have a hard time trying to find a supplier who thinks it is worth their time to bring in quality grains -- transport costs are excessive.

Thanks for the kind words, Ian. Although I am not sure of the value of what I sometimes offer. I have worked with volunteer organizations and non-profit organizations for about 40 years. And whether it is a for-profit group or non-profit voluntary organization one issue is consistent about healthy organizations: good leadership. It is more than fair to generalize and say: "Healthy organizations have strong, fair leadership who do not blink when faced with difficulty; unhealthy organizations have unhealthy leadership." Leaders that have the best interest of the organization in mind and who don't pad their own egos or cater to their friends do well, as a rule of thumb. When I began pigeon racing I was part of a new club that had Campbell Strange as its president. He was a weathy man, owned an internationally known commercial breeding stud -- and he loved to win! He held strong opinions about pigeon racing. You would think him to be the ideal candidate for the "class struggle" that Roland portrays. But he firmly guided the club toward policies and procedures that were as fair as they could be in pigeon racing, even if it did not favor him. No one was happier when someone else won a race. The race schedule changed direction each year: North, South, East, West. We had very good people in the club and we had some that were only out for themselves. What was best for the club came first. That club grew like wildfire because it had firm policies that were not created to favor any individuals. I wish I had more to offer, Ian. It all comes down to getting the right people into the right chairs -- and then protecting them from the back-stabbers.

Roland, you are dead right with that observation! It really is difficult to legislate bad behaviors, but perhaps the old-fashioned idea of a sargeant-at-arms (Roberts Rules of Order governing meetings) could be initiated again wherein the SAT levies fines for displaying lack of respect. Hit them with a 25.00 Stirling fine every time they spout crap to a fellow member -- they will soon stop their preening and ripping up of fellow members if they must pay for the privilege! ;D ;D Just joking, of course (maybe not!). What you describe is endemic in our culture: a forsaking of civil society and good sportsmanship. Not just true of pigeon fanciers, but across the board in all volunteer organizations.