Losses too high in National racing into Scotland?

[Novice]

For those of you who have access to it there is an article in Natural Winning Ways Number 24 pages 35 to 41 which discusses Orientation Ability.

It is well worth a read.

[Albear]

Interesting debate, in the last two weeks there have ben 3 YB Nats, Irish, NFC and Scottish, what unites them all is poor returns. In my section only 10 YB timed on the day, not bad on the east though, but racing up the east compared to the west tends to be easier because of prevailing winds and flat land with few peregrine particularly in England. I have no answer to why other than wind , topography and hawks.

GPS however has fascinated me, simply because I don'r know exactly what it would teach us. Let's say you attach a GPS and the bird flies so far and then the gps is static, i.e. the pigeon is dead, wires, hawk, gun, how would we deal with that, how would we identify cause, we might find the GPS but would we find a carcass? I doubt it because some predator will have taken it which ever way it dies. And what if the pigeon ends up on Arran for example what does that prove.

How could we scientifically produce a balanced report. I would suggest by putting gps on every single pigeon in a convoy, that way you could record current whereabouts of GPS but what would it prove, you still could not prove or show what has happened to the pigeon. I'd be interested in alternative views on this and how GPS would work, my mind is not closed on this, it needs opening however to how it would help us.

[Guest bigda]

vincey it don't wash they young bird in the lanarkshire have as much  experiance or not more than others flying with 10,000 and the birds can make it up the east coast,  and all the west birds have to do at eyemouth or Dunbar is  turn in west  but they ain't  they do not return  full stop so i say somewhere around the solway area there is a problem.  cant and don't know the reason,    most fanciers train  out of  Edinburgh  most train from there 7 days a week the way the race is there is a basket load at a time no more than that getting  going heading for home no big convoy as you believe  last night there where 100 doos max from 2.300 dose that not regester with you a streeter would stay with the batch  these birds are getting disturbed some where along the road

[Guest bigda]

albear the way i would be loking at  gps to the birds that returned  and log there flight path,  then going over it  as to why it  avoided that streach of  ground  consistantly  when there are no  hills in the way as these mast need clear signal areas  to work and i say they are in the line of flight to birds  and we exposed this

we might have a case to present in court  that these mast are bad for us all

[Guest bakes]

 

a few links used by fellow flyers over the water

 

all the best.

[Guest bigda]

 

 

 

As far as I am aware they do not transmit.

I appreciate these are available and have been used to track migratory birds but as far as I am aware they are not generally available.

 

novice have a look at the links on this thread  from gem products

[Albear]

albear the way i would be loking at  gps to the birds that returned  and log there flight path,  then going over it  as to why it  avoided that streach of  ground  consistantly  when there are no  hills in the way as these mast need clear signal areas  to work and i say they are in the line of flight to birds  and we exposed this

we might have a case to present in court  that these mast are bad for us all

 

Bigda I think that's a good idea but the cost at this stage is prohibitive. To prove anything, you would need to do a set of races from the same race points. Studyingone race would prove nothing and you would need to do the whole convoy. What happens when 20% of the convoy that return go over the mast and then 50% of the rest detour around the mast, what does that prove>/ Does it mean the 50% were rubbish, I'm sure the mast people would successfully aregue this. I'm not being negative but devil's advocate

[Novice]

 

novice have a look at the links on this thread  from gem products

 

Once again I have read the text.

My impression is as always that the system is only useful when birds have returned home and the device is connected to a P.C. It does not transmit.

I also note that the battery life is 4-4.5 hours. Not much good for birds which take a wrong turning.

I don't want to put a dampener on what is a reasonable suggestion but these are my views based on what I have read.

Many months ago I considered buying one of these systems but when I did my homework I considered it would not do what I wanted from it and shelved the idea.

 

 

[Albear]

When I said a set of races from the same race point, what I was trying to say was that you would probably need a period perhaps 5 years before you could start to show a consistent pattern.

[Guest bigda]

to a point  but say  the mast are having the same affect on all routes in the uk there is no mast controller or owner  going to say  the  signal that they omit  have affect on us  as with all sorts of cancers  all i know the more there are the more birds get lost   and we should know as wee breed more out of winning birds  so  leaves us baffled  that GPSS  is worth a look at  the chips must be  available  for 100 birds  at any race even in the Scottish scenario  try it this side of the borders see the flight path  then try it in the others side of the hills see  if the birds take up the same flight path from there  any thing

[Guest bigda]

 

Once again I have read the text.

My impression is as always that the system is only useful when birds have returned home and the device is connected to a P.C. It does not transmit.

I also note that the battery life is 4-4.5 hours. Not much good for birds which take a wrong turning.

I don't want to put a dampener on what is a reasonable suggestion but these are my views based on what I have read.

Many months ago I considered buying one of these systems but when I did my homework I considered it would not do what I wanted from it and shelved the idea.

 

 

novice your not daming it mate i am only saying have a hundred birds  put the  chip on release the ones that make it study the flight path   have  a few more trials  till you get a clear picture

[Guest bigda]

 

novice your not damping it mate i am only saying have a hundred birds  put the  chip on release the ones that make it study the flight path   have  a few more trials  till you get a clear picture

 

 

[Guest bigda]

the gps  is showing you the line of flight saveing you loads of time,and  where to toss  for the race the bird is  goining  to be at,   i   think  all club should  get one if is only £125 all chip in for it

[Albear]

to a point  but say  the mast are having the same affect on all routes in the uk there is no mast controller or owner  going to say  the  signal that they omit  have affect on us  as with all sorts of cancers  all i know the more there are the more birds get lost   and we should know as wee breed more out of winning birds  so  leaves us baffled  that GPSS  is worth a look at  the chips must be  available  for 100 birds  at any race even in the Scottish scenario  try it this side of the borders see the flight path  then try it in the others side of the hills see  if the birds take up the same flight path from there  any thing

 

Don't disagree that this is well worth doing but it will not be a quick fix, it will cost money and at the end of the day thre is no guarantee that we will get a proven result. Would a couple of helicopters with cameras following convoys possibly do as much?

[Guest bigda]

have they enough  fuel  as the birds take an age lol

[Guest bigda]

think the helicopter would stop a percy strike  so that would rule him out

[JADE]

vincey it don't wash they young bird in the lanarkshire have as much  experiance or not more than others flying with 10,000 and the birds can make it up the east coast,  and all the west birds have to do at eyemouth or Dunbar is  turn in west  but they ain't  they do not return  full stop so i say somewhere around the solway area there is a problem.  cant and don't know the reason,    most fanciers train  out of  Edinburgh  most train from there 7 days a week the way the race is there is a basket load at a time no more than that getting  going heading for home no big convoy as you believe  last night there where 100 doos max from 2.300 dose that not regester with you a streeter would stay with the batch  these birds are getting disturbed some where along the road

 

dont know where you get 100 doos max from there were 59 into dundee station alone according to clockman and that was from less than 200 entries. norman renton has 10 on libline plus many others with multiple times. i agree there is a problem for the west guys but i honestly think it has something to do with your race programme i.e too many short races with a big convoy where the majority of the birds are just followers. when they get in with birds going a different direction

[Babybird]

think the helicopter would stop a percy strike  so that would rule him out

 

what about a micro light? they are quiet once they are up :-/

 

Looks a bit like a bird, might not put them off?

 

Or you could just send one on the short races as a pigeon sitter LOL

[Guest bigda]

how do they find  percy when hes lost has he not got a chip  what if  percy then took yer chip to the nest and each nest had 100 chip would the  rspb blame the cat  just a thought

[Albear]

think the helicopter would stop a percy strike  so that would rule him out

 

Not sure about that, lots of choppers down here with the main base near Yeovil fly regular over me to marine base in North Devon, doesn't bother percy and the chopper could be much higher with good cameras but a bit pie in the sky I suppose!

[Guest bigda]

 

dont know where you get 100 doos max from there were 59 into dundee station alone according to clockman and that was from less than 200 entries. norman renton has 10 on libline plus many others with multiple times. i agree there is a problem for the west guys but i honestly think it has something to do with your race programme i.e too many short races with a big convoy where the majority of the birds are just followers. when they get in with birds going a different direction

                                         well clocky was wrong he knows they have to be regestered in the national as all birds  15min after timing in  

 

 

[Guest bigda]

what about a few chiped birds from all clubs and it down loaded every wek if they make it back  just to start it of

[Delboy]

i don't know how much the chip cost but  if we had a mock race and had 6 experienced fanciers  give there opinion on birds that should make it home,   the experienced fanciers would check and  judge on handling,health wise,  buoyancy, and nest condition, and they chose  amount of birds  for a 150-250 mile race  on a week day and see why its hard  to race  gem one is £120  but if we could get  say 200 chips  we might have a chance of finding out,  as what is happening, a grant from  the council  may help as its to do with the community and they have community grants

 

I agree with you, something done is better than nothing done. We all talk about the devastation BOP is doing and yet we never act on it.We sit back and let it happen year after year hoping somebody else will sort it. I think it should be common practise for every pigeon fancier to try and sort things for the benefit of their sport. I would never criticise anybody trying to fathom out the problems that occur in our pigeon sport at present.

[JADE]

                                         well clocky was wrong he knows they have to be regestered in the national as all birds  15min after timing in  

 

 

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[Roland]

Think it is great for those that can afford as such. Obviously most couldn't - but the info stored and related would surely have a beneficial side to it. Mind be a long process and loads of data to be fed in over a peiod of times - seasons- to give a truish and meaningful, yet worythwhile result data thay took a lot into consideraion. Would also have to be tallied from many race points on same day, and hopefully nearish Liberation time. Also of course the 'Road' that they flew.

Other than that, just to see where your bird, and £125, gets lost would be nice I guess lol ;D ;D