Hawk Petition

[THE FIFER]

There will be petition Stations at various points in the winter gardens including the Empress Ballroom, and will be marked on the Trade Stand map, so get along and sign the petition, to get the hawk numbers properly controlled, those are being organized by RPRA Councilor and president RPRA Welsh Region , Jim Hooper

[gulkie]

is there something different about this one than the rest?

[frank-123]

nothing against the guy hooper but he his banging his head against a brick wall

the rspb could come up with a petition 20 times the size of ours and with greater financial muscle so therefore a more powerful voice

until the small birds are gone then the rspb will have a freedom to do what ever they like

 

 

our answer to our problem has been highlighted on here many times with the answer there for all to see

[OLDYELLOW]

no harm in signing another Petition , getting legal rights to control is going to be the best option however , the protection granted should of been removed long ago as stated in the protection bill !!!!!! only way to get this highlighted would to bring London to a stand still and send all the transporters down there and get the big estate owners to drive there tractors there , then they'd might just listen

[Guest mick bowler]

nothing against the guy hooper but he his banging his head against a brick wall

the rspb could come up with a petition 20 times the size of ours and with greater financial muscle so therefore a more powerful voice

until the small birds are gone then the rspb will have a freedom to do what ever they like

 

 

our answer to our problem has been highlighted on here many times with the answer there for all to see

 

 

Totally agree Frank.

 

There is only one way the RSPB will listen now. Actions speak a 1000 times more than words (or signatures).

[OLDYELLOW]

why don't they get the petitions on the entrances and get them signing on way in much better imo

[Guest IB]

At the close of Stage 1 of the Wildlife & Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill last month, the Committee accepted this new Law had to include new measures to stop the illegal killing of raptors. These include:-

 

'presumption of guilty intent' - i.e caught with poison or a trap, you're guilty.

 

'vicarious laibility - i.e if the gamekeeper did it, then his boss is also guilty of the crime' etc.

 

Stage 2 closes near the end of this month. It already includes new provisions

 

for the control of raptors provided a clear social, economic or environmental case is demonstrated . This will be under License, for an otherwise prohibited activity.

 

It has been a long struggle getting the Law changed here in Scotland. But we have proved it can be done. So get those petitions signed.

[Guest mick bowler]

why don't they get the petitions on the entrances and get them signing on way in much better imo

 

How many of these that would be willing to sign this petition would be willing to hand over £50 at the same time? I bet not many, its easy to put a sig on a bit of paper, but still to some thats even too much trouble. Its the same with the whole sport, not many willing to put themselves out, they just want to leave it too the few.

 

Ask them to donate the £50 and start a legal fighting fund, challenge the legalities of the BOP protection and the protection of "our own property". But like i said most would look like you just ask them for their life savings lol. This is the only legal way the matter will maybe get resolved, but it will not happen.

 

I have spoken to a few about "the protection of our own birds" lately. Two of them on the verge of packing it in. One of them liked my ideas put them into practise and can see the light at the end of a very dark tunnel. The other (just 2 days ago) said it sounded like a "lot of work", as soon as he said that to me i just replied "well good luck with your new hobby" and put the phone down.

 

I wish we had the backing of the unions and its members to have a full page in every weekly every week explaining how a problem can be resolved, educate the uneducated as it were, but thats when the legal battle would commence, despite many of the the things that can be used to protect our birds being "legal", Ivomec for one!

[Tony C]

How many of these that would be willing to sign this petition would be willing to hand over £50 at the same time? I bet not many, its easy to put a sig on a bit of paper, but still to some thats even too much trouble. Its the same with the whole sport, not many willing to put themselves out, they just want to leave it too the few.

 

Ask them to donate the £50 and start a legal fighting fund, challenge the legalities of the BOP protection and the protection of "our own property". But like i said most would look like you just ask them for their life savings lol. This is the only legal way the matter will maybe get resolved, but it will not happen.

 

I have spoken to a few about "the protection of our own birds" lately. Two of them on the verge of packing it in. One of them liked my ideas put them into practise and can see the light at the end of a very dark tunnel. The other (just 2 days ago) said it sounded like a "lot of work", as soon as he said that to me i just replied "well good luck with your new hobby" and put the phone down.

 

I wish we had the backing of the unions and its members to have a full page in every weekly every week explaining how a problem can be resolved, educate the uneducated as it were, but thats when the legal battle would commence, despite many of the the things that can be used to protect our birds being "legal", Ivomec for one!

 

Perhaps a series of clips could be put up on youtube under the guise of something else showing how to combat BOP, anti-mating jackets etc.

[geordie1234]

At the close of Stage 1 of the Wildlife & Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill last month, the Committee accepted this new Law had to include new measures to stop the illegal killing of raptors. These include:-

 

'presumption of guilty intent' - i.e caught with poison or a trap, you're guilty.

 

'vicarious laibility - i.e if the gamekeeper did it, then his boss is also guilty of the crime' etc.

 

Stage 2 closes near the end of this month. It already includes new provisions

 

for the control of raptors provided a clear social, economic or environmental case is demonstrated . This will be under License, for an otherwise prohibited activity.

 

It has been a long struggle getting the Law changed here in Scotland. But we have proved it can be done. So get those petitions signed.

what are the laws regarding bop in scotland are we allowed tyo do anything about them

[THE FIFER]

what are the laws regarding bop in scotland are we allowed tyo do anything about them

 

 

Legaly you can't do anything to any bird m8 without a license ,

[geordie1234]

Legaly you can't do anything to any bird m8 without a license ,

 

 

 

 

Legaly you can't do anything to any bird m8 without a license ,

who has a licence or how can you get one

[frank-123]

At the close of Stage 1 of the Wildlife & Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill last month, the Committee accepted this new Law had to include new measures to stop the illegal killing of raptors. These include:-

 

'presumption of guilty intent' - i.e caught with poison or a trap, you're guilty.

 

'vicarious laibility - i.e if the gamekeeper did it, then his boss is also guilty of the crime' etc.

 

Stage 2 closes near the end of this month. It already includes new provisions

 

for the control of raptors provided a clear social, economic or environmental case is demonstrated . This will be under License, for an otherwise prohibited activity.

 

It has been a long struggle getting the Law changed here in Scotland. But we have proved it can be done. So get those petitions signed.

 

 

ib

 

do you think they will hand out licence's in scotland to control raptors ?

 

as for guilty intent who needs poison or traps

 

 

[showman]

Signing a petition, has a nil monetery cost involved, so everyone can sign. OK, it's 'another' petition, but better that than doing absolutely nothing.

With the current difficulties facing many fanciers in these hard financial times, to ask for a substantial donation to any fund, would be an impossibilty for quite a few.

I,for one, will sign every petition placed in front of me, but being unemployed for the last 22 months, ask me for a donation of the size previously quoted......well, I'll leave you to guess the answer, and also, I believe, would many others. JMO.

[frank-123]

Signing a petition, has a nil monetery cost involved, so everyone can sign. OK, it's 'another' petition, but better that than doing absolutely nothing.

With the current difficulties facing many fanciers in these hard financial times, to ask for a substantial donation to any fund, would be an impossibilty for quite a few.

I,for one, will sign every petition placed in front of me, but being unemployed for the last 22 months, ask me for a donation of the size previously quoted......well, I'll leave you to guess the answer, and also, I believe, would many others. JMO.

 

a monetary value would need to be added to dues by the unions for a legal fighting to fund a top lawyer QC will start at £3000 per day

or a good public relations company might be upwards of £15,000 to highlight your case to the media

 

or you could just....................

[Guest The Bairn]

Any-one know where I can obtain IVOMEX ?.

[Guest IB]

who has a licence or how can you get one

 

Think the method envisaged by SHU under existing legislation was that on receiving your application, they would apply to Scottish Government for a license for you. Which organisation will issue licenses under new legislation is still to be decided: that could be Scottish Government, Local Council or Scottish Natural Heritage.

[Guest mick bowler]

Signing a petition, has a nil monetery cost involved, so everyone can sign. OK, it's 'another' petition, but better that than doing absolutely nothing.

With the current difficulties facing many fanciers in these hard financial times, to ask for a substantial donation to any fund, would be an impossibilty for quite a few.

I,for one, will sign every petition placed in front of me, but being unemployed for the last 22 months, ask me for a donation of the size previously quoted......well, I'll leave you to guess the answer, and also, I believe, would many others. JMO.

 

 

Paul, i understand what your saying and my figure was just an example, but how much is it worth to continue racing your pigeons each year?. There always going to be them that can afford it and them that cant, and thats why something like this should never be compulsory.

 

The other point i was trying to make is it is hard enough trying to get lads to sign a bit of paper, let alone ask for something more. There are those that will stand by and let others do the work at THEIR OWN RISK, or are just blind to what is going on and think they are not being affected by the raptor problem. I think its a case of what the eye doesnt see.............

[Guest IB]

ib

 

do you think they will hand out licence's in scotland to control raptors ?

 

as for guilty intent who needs poison or traps

 

It's just not pigeon fanciers that are pushing this, raptors affect many leisure, business and sporting concerns across Scotland. Proof of that is the objectors to the peregrine breeding centre in the Borders. It's the recognition that those concerns are legitimate that has prompted this Bill.

 

On 'guilty intent' : this Bill as presented had no such provisions in it. These were added at Stage 1 as a result of a petition by RSPB which was accepted by the Committee. If it also changed their view, those who commit wildlife crime just made it more difficult for a change in the Law to allow control of raptors.

[showman]

Just for informations' sake, Mick, what,if any,is the Irish Governments' viewpoint on BOP ?

[frank-123]

It's just not pigeon fanciers that are pushing this, raptors affect many leisure, business and sporting concerns across Scotland. Proof of that is the objectors to the peregrine breeding centre in the Borders. It's the recognition that those concerns are legitimate that has prompted this Bill.

 

On 'guilty intent' : this Bill as presented had no such provisions in it. These were added at Stage 1 as a result of a petition by RSPB which was accepted by the Committee. If it also changed their view, those who commit wildlife crime just made it more difficult for a change in the Law to allow control of raptors.

 

think you will find the licence term's will involve buzzards,crows, magpie's and seagulls but not peregrine or sparrowhawk's

and certainly no licence's will be given to pigeon fanciers to protect there birds from the daily onslaught

[OLDYELLOW]

How many of these that would be willing to sign this petition would be willing to hand over £50 at the same time? I bet not many, its easy to put a sig on a bit of paper, but still to some thats even too much trouble. Its the same with the whole sport, not many willing to put themselves out, they just want to leave it too the few.

 

Ask them to donate the £50 and start a legal fighting fund, challenge the legalities of the BOP protection and the protection of "our own property". But like i said most would look like you just ask them for their life savings lol. This is the only legal way the matter will maybe get resolved, but it will not happen.

 

I have spoken to a few about "the protection of our own birds" lately. Two of them on the verge of packing it in. One of them liked my ideas put them into practise and can see the light at the end of a very dark tunnel. The other (just 2 days ago) said it sounded like a "lot of work", as soon as he said that to me i just replied "well good luck with your new hobby" and put the phone down.

 

I wish we had the backing of the unions and its members to have a full page in every weekly every week explaining how a problem can be resolved, educate the uneducated as it were, but thats when the legal battle would commence, despite many of the the things that can be used to protect our birds being "legal", Ivomec for one!

Members have been putting money into the unions for years time they stopped sitting on there hands and did what there paid for respresenting us to the likes of Government and R.S.P.B

[Guest Owen]

As usual with this sort of thing there are people quibling and trying to spend other people's money for them. We have all been buying the British Homing World for years and paying Union Fees. Any sensible organisation would have built a bit extra into these elements years ago. We should and could have had all the money we need to fight our corner. As regards the RSPB, I have no doubt that most of the General Public listen to what they say because they have built up their image in a way that makes them appear to be experts in their field. Of course we know that they are not. They are run by a relitively few jealots who set the standards for the whole thing. Just yesterday I visited the Wet Land Centre at Slimbridge and listened to the presentation on the introduction of Cranes. What a load of old tosh that was. However, I did note the language used in the presentation and on the notices displayed for the Public to read. Clever, very clever.

These people are good at what they do and they do not miss an opportunity to put their message accross. We must do the same. It is no use trying to shout as many voices and having everyone think that they alone have the good ideas. Or, for that matter, trying to work in small groups either at an elite level or by shouting the odds.

I rather liked the approach taking by Mo when he used to write on the Forums. His message was always the same, everyone should suport the cause of reducing the imact of the BOP and that actions speak louder than words, and to be fair to him he lead from the front.

And in conclusion, I reckon that no-one should enjoy a position of authority in this sport unless they are prepared to participate in this fight and get their hands dirty.

[Guest mick bowler]

Just for informations' sake, Mick, what,if any,is the Irish Governments' viewpoint on BOP ?

 

 

Paul, the EU directive (Annex I of the EU Birds Directive) covers Ireland, so therefore it is illegal to kill or persecute BOP here. BUT(lol), see if you can find Peregrines on any "endangered" list (EPA or NPWS) and you could struggle lol, which seems strange!!

[showman]

Would it be true to say, Mick, that whilst Peregrines, for example, may not appear on an 'endangered' list, they will appear on a 'protected' list ?