When is a National a National?????

[swilcox]

Dear All

 

I have been for a while a little bit alarmed just how easy the word National is used in England. Currently we have National races with the BBC, BICC, NFC, NWGN, MNFC and the UNC. Now in my opinion a National by definition is a race that is open to an entire Nation which would include the NFC, BBC and BICC but what gives the UNC, MNFC, NWGN the right to call a race a National because i for one cant enter! The BICC are a fine club by also now are running National races on a near weekly basis and the BBC has such a low membership base that its hard to call it a National in the way the Belguims do. We also then have National races with under 2000 pigeons on a regular basis and i dont think this is healthy for the sport.

 

Ofcoarse one of the big problems is the NFC which should be our premier NATIONAL organisation are a mess and dont really cater for fanciers north of Birmingham.

 

In my mind England needs to revamp National Flying across the board so that a National (maybe split into zones) can attract the right support and the massive birdage a true English National deserves. Maybe the RPRA should lead this???

 

Many breeders and racers in the UK claim they are the winners and breeders of x amount of National winners, but if i as an everyday fancier didnt have chance to compete against this pigeon because of my location then it cant be a National.

 

Fact; any club that has a boundry short of an entire Nation does have the right to call a race a National regardless of birdage and quality of competition. The MNFC BICC BBC UNC NWGN our all fine clubs and very hard clubs to win but it doesnt mean they are really true nationals.

 

Stuart Wilcox

 

[TheSaddler]

I don't care too much about the name of an organisation. Far too many people get hung up the name - Afterall it's only a name.

 

I also dont take too much notice of who's won! I look at the people just that little bit down the sheet who race to a disadvantaged position and who send low birdage - the winners of national races (although having the highest velocities) are not always the best birds/fanciers.

 

I dont think we need to change anything - In my opinion competition is healthy.

 

Just my opinion though..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diamond dave]

I agree with the Saddler - whats in a name?

 

A friend of mine (sadly now past away) used to talk to me about something called the "PEOPLES RACE" or something similar. He told me it was from Perth and anyone in the country could enter it. On Liberation birds would be going in all directions. This to me would be more of a "national" race. Does anyone remember anything about it?

[swilcox]

Dave that my point we dont have a true National North or South just smaller versions of it!!!

 

S

[ribble]

totally agree with you swilcox,we should all be racing as regions.and when we go over the brook all up together.the rpra seem to be in charge of racing but don't organize it.the unc have the right idea.....

[Diamond dave]

Swilcox, I appreciate what you are saying mate and I think it would be truly a great National race. But lets be realistic - the logistics of it would be impossible through an independant organisation. The only way it could happen is for ALL the classic clubs to come together and that aint gonna happen when one of these "semi -national clubs" wont even recognise another!!

[Tony C]

For arguements sake lets say all these clubs did create one uk national, where would the fairest racepoint be?

[THE FIFER]

THE RPRA HAD A RULE WITH REF. TO WHO COULD USE THE WORD NATIONAL, IF U LOOK AT THE RPRA RULES FOR 2005, U WILL SEE IT BUT IN THE NEW RULES FOR 2006 IT'S GONE.?????

[THE FIFER]

IF SOMEONE WINS A FEDRATION OPEN FROM SAY 500MLS. WITH 3,000 BIRDS COMPETING, AND ANOTHER WINS A NATIONAL FROM THE SAME RACE POINT WITH 1,000 BIRDS, IS THE ONE WICH WINS THE NATIONAL A BETTER BIRD THAN THE FED OPEN, IF U DIDNT KNOW THOSE FANCIERS AND U HAD THE CHOICE OF A YOUNGSTER FROM A NATIONAL WINNER OR A YOUNGSTER FROM A FED WINNER WHICH WOULD U TAKE??

[swilcox]

 

Split the country into North East, North West, Midlands West, Midlands East, Soth West, South East.

 

First 3 races are region races! to suit each region.

 

Next 3 races split section to suit and called Semi National

                  North (east/west) ??????, Folkstone, Piccauville,

                  Midland(east/west) Portland, piccauville, Messac

                  South(east/west) Messac, Nantes, Saintes

 

Next 3 races would be open to the entire country Nantes, Dax (int), Pau(int)

 

It would work and im shore you would have birdages up to 40,000 birds in some races!!!!! Still and clubs and combine within the above system. It would be cheaper and we could give more publicity to the winners!!!!!!

 

Stuart

[jimmy white]

;D ;D i would take a youngster off the fed winner,fifer[but i would try and get 2 ;D ;D[and might evn give you one of them ;D] but the funny thing is the so called nat winner would be worth more,,,,, crazy

the days seem to have gone where we had 6000 birds away to rennes snfc, open to the whole of scotland " the blue ribband race"the daddy of them all :)

[Guest]

Can hardly call the English Midlands a country, can you?

 

Think some of the specialist clubs with 'short' boundaries would be better with 'international' in their title, rather than national.

 

On the question raised about the Fed winner 3000 birds and the National winner 1000 birds, got to say I'd go for the National winner every time. Three reasons: (1) Fed, all the birds are racing to the same target area, no need for a thinking bird or make-a-break from the rest of the sheep there; (2) National, the birds are going all over the country, they need to be individuals and make decisions for themselves otherwise they'll find themselves hundreds of miles off-track. (3) The 1000 National birds are hand-picked for the job while the 3000 Fed birds are 99% fodder sent for reasons other than winning; and a smaller convoy has a more difficult time getting down the road than a larger one ... just compare velocities.

 

 

[square_peg]

SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BRUNO   THAT 99% OF WHAT YOU SEND TO YOUR FED RACE IS FODDER     AND FED WINNING DOO DONT HAVE TO THINK FOR ITSELF

[Guest]

I'm taking nothing away from a winning pigeon, irrespective of the type of race its in..

 

What is being proposed by others is that a pigeon winning a federation race consisting of 3000 pigeons is superior to one winning a smaller national contingent. What they  are talking about then are the other birds in the race.  

 

What I am talking about is the quality of the other birds in the race.

 

Like other clubs and feds, we only have one 1st prize. Of the 16 I sent last weekend, I am allowed to pool only two and these were the two I reckoned had best chance of coming up trumps. Like it or not, against the fancied pigeons, the other 14 are just fodder, they go because they're fit to race .... I don't expect any of them to beat the two I've chosen to win, not this week anyway.

 

And like it or not, that's probably EXACTLY how you think & do too, every week, in ordinary club & fed races. And bet you do it a lot differently in a national ... if you think they've no chance, they just don't go...

[Guest WINGS 04]

bruno why would you send the other 14 if you only need 2 if you did not think they had a chance and did your 2 come in 1st and 2nd to your loft

[Mike Lycett]

The problem is simple :  Everyone wants to be chief of their own little empire & it just aint gonna change.   Less people in the sport than ever before, but more clubs & Feds than ever...  It aint right, but there's no resolution "in the real world" anyway

[Guest]

ur right in a way bruno i can see exactly what your saying.

 

''they go because they're fit to race .... I don't expect any of them to beat the two I've chosen to win, not this week anyway''

 

Wings 04   - if he never sent the other 14 they would never become race fit. bruno never said that these 2 where his best in the loft, just the best 2 for that race,.

 

 

i sent mine this week knowing non of them where fit enough or in good enough condition to race i just sent them with future races in mind. they will not get fit sat in the loft.

 

i had my national cards from last yearon friday and it dont look good on it 1st national   5,063 (me thinks this is right) birds competing and 500+ birds in the section.plus if we where ALLOWED to fly in the combine she would have topped that 10,000 + birds   :-)

[THE FIFER]

bruno u say national birds have to think as they are with birds from all over the country, which national has birds from all over the country, if this was so there surely would be big birdage, i can't find my 2005 rpra rules but i am sure it stated if a organisation used the name "NATIONAL" it must be open to all rpra members, but this is now not in the 2006 rules????? , the 2 scottish national clubs are open to the whole of scotland, (a country)

[Guest ben]

Hi Dave,

             To enter the People`s race ,each bird had to already have won a top race beforehand,to be eligable to compete,you could say the cream of engish racing were only allowed to partake in these very special happenings,but that was in the days when pigeon racing really was a big sport,and other newspaper `s held certain big races,ALL GONE NOW,and i suppose it`s not really anyones fault,just a changing world.

Fifer,did you know you can win the WELSH north road national,but still not win the federation,how stupid`s that and they all go up on the same transporters together,libs together

    Stuart,your right what your saying,and the NFC have failed british racing for years,starting around middle 60`s all the way till now,senile,head in the sand attitude,and that`s why these other clubs have sprung up,and were not saying for 1 minute these are poor clubs,but someone needs to get a grip on the problem.

   As for all these so called "mickey mouse" national winners we see week in week out in the fancy press,well,you and i know there are only a few genuine national races,PAU NFC,Palamos BBC,and Pau,Barcelona,Marseille,Perpignan in the BICC.

   It`s nice for whoever wins other National type races,but the afore mentioned are the crown jewels.

    But saying all that i think the only way forward for national racing must be with the BICC,simply because it gives each country more clought,and for us engish boys ,we need all the help we can from our euro frindships.

    

[THE FIFER]

TAKE ANY COUNTRY WHICH HAS 2 NATIONAL CLUBS WHICH RACE ON THE SAME DAY, HOW CAN ANY OF THEM SAY THEY ARE COMPETING AGAINST THE COUNTRY, ITS IMPOSSIBLE. NONE OF THEM ARE COMPETING AGAINST THE COUNTRY, SO ARE THEY NATIONALS?????

[Guest]

I may be sticking my nose in a Uk arguement but I've never had a high opinion of what are called "National" Races.  I don't think they can ever be a level playing field. You only have to look at the logistics, such as how many miles of open water the pigeons have to cross, the multiplicity of the weather patterns in the UK on race days and even the families of pigeons flown.  A person in the Northern part of England has to fly a totally different bird to a person flying on the South Coast for a lot of the shorter Channel races.

 

I see extremely fair racing in the big one loft races here in the USA, you are competing against flyers from all over the Country and often Europe, Mexico and Canada.  Your pigeons are housed in one loft, fed and medicated exactly the same, trained the same and are competing against each other on race days in the same weather conditions.  You are competing against the best each entrant sends.

 

Better get my tin hat on now and dig a trench cause I'm sure I'm going to get some flak

[Mike Lycett]

The reason there are so many "specialist" organisations in the UK is that they all fail to please

[Mike Lycett]

I would have thought a club that claims to be a national club should have a radius that covers the whole of that nation  Your right Hyacinth its never going to be a level playing field when you are covering the whole country you are going to get different distances on the longer races short fliers being able to be home on the day long fliers not till the next day I think the fairest way to do this is for a midday lib so if one bird has a night out they all should you will have winds that will benefit certain sections and not others which there is nothing you can do about think you really need to look at each section result not just the sections where you expect them to get the birds think a bird that wins a section and that is up in the open reuslt with everything against it is as good as a winner

 

Agree entirely Rose

 

Mike

[Pompey Mick]

When I started racing in 1963 if a NFC rung youngster entered your loft it was looked upon as something special, a youngster that had been selected by it's owner to represent him in the Young Bird National. At that time my Federation left the National dates free so that all the members who raced National could concentrate on the NATIONAL.  The local Clock Station was a hive of activity with all the National flyers congregating together and the races themselves were meticulously prepared for. Today, sadly , that is not the case with so called 'Nationals' and Specialist Clubs racing on a near weekly basis, with an awful lot of fanciers racing this type of racing only I would suggest that in a lot of cases 99% of the birds entered are 'fodder' especially the shorter races. In the early sixties you would never see fanciers entering 30's and 40's they would enter a hand picked team of birds prepared for the job. There are still fanciers of that calibre about today but I feel they are a dying breed, when the NFC and the MidlandsNFC start picking race programmes on economic grounds then it is obvious that they are after quantity rather than quality.

[Diamond dave]

Ben,

Was the "peoples race" named after a newspaper? - I thought it meant for the people!!!!