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Posted

Roland,

I could agree with what you are saying if the cause of the problem was through wild birds or the like. It is not. What is being suggested is that someone has allowed infected carcases into this country from somewhere that is already infected. Defras so called vigilance is to be found wanting and to quote Invincible again some "idiot" has let this in through the back door. Now to my mind that would be nothing less than negligent.

Mr Matthews very kindly "volounteered" to stop the movement of all such cargo to the UK. - HOW THE HELL WAS HE ALLOWED TO BRING IT INTO THIS COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE FROM AN INFECTED AREA?

Nothing personal Roland - just healthy debate.

 

D.D.

Posted

Roland, DEFRA surely must shoulder some responsibility for this fiasco, along with other similar European bodies. Considering the Hungarian outbreak was in January, Why did they not monitor and stop the "meat movement" from the infected country? Personally, I think that the fault lies within the EU itself. But being a humble layman, Who is Vic? to argue with the big boys. ;)  

Posted

Reading the previous posts I think some of the important points have been missed.

 

The two strains of H5N1 virus are said to be identical. A virus cannot replicate an exact copy of itself. And the one in Hungary has goose genes in it, while the one in UK has turkey genes in it.

 

Why Hungary infecting England and not the other way round? The trade was two-way. After all it was LIVE BIRDS out to Hungary and frozen part-processed turkeys back.

 

Trade was said to be with unaffected parts of Hungary, all perfectly above board. Poultry products cannot move from or into the Zones set up. Business as usual elesewhere in Hungary, much like here in the UK now.

 

A step-change in 'our' understanding of this virus is just round-the-corner. Food Standards Agency and other government agencies here and in Hungary 'thought' the virus cannot survive freezing. Wrong. It cannot withstand heating but survives freezing at -30C, we have a 2004 paper on that! So frozen uncooked part-processed meat may not be the virus-free product folk thought.

 

 

 

 

Posted

bruno you said it cannot survive heat then y did they people die when they killled and eat their chickens ,is this going to be like the c j d in cattle u know what they said about that , this thing is going to be here for awhile and as far as i am concerned the only way it will come into this country is through humans ,i dont beleive for one minute that wild birds will bring it in as there is to many predators in the country striving to get a living a better word for them is hoovers who mop up all dead things that swan in cellardyke was a one off ,if its as bad as they say then birds flying long distances are going to be dead before they reach this country as we all know birds that migrate have got to be fit .

Posted

And Dave I agree, and love healthy, and even heated debates.  Also know you, and most others, seldom if ever mean anything untoward. And I like most can debate other topics without malice if ever I've been put in my place lol.

I thnk the principle is 'Fine to disagree, but not to be disagreeable'. lol.

Posted

I think we should look at the possible good points and maybe learn a bit about jumping the gun and starting title tatle lets face it we pigeon men are good at that i think defra will learn alot from this and may look closer at the so called experts and might even listen to the experts who say pigeons dont carry it and at least the timeing of this incident was good for the pos.of racing (providing no further outbreaks ) i dont think blaming any one will help our cause but it would be a nice time to push our point with an interview with maybe Peter Bryant on the tv (Sky news ha-ha) dont think we will get a better chance at this use the media machine as i said before they are only interested in getting stories NOT THE TRUTH so give them something to have a go at officaldom they love it

Posted
bruno you said it cannot survive heat then y did they people die when they killled and eat their chickens ,is this going to be like the c j d in cattle u know what they said about that , this thing is going to be here for awhile and as far as i am concerned the only way it will come into this country is through humans ,i dont beleive for one minute that wild birds will bring it in as there is to many predators in the country striving to get a living a better word for them is hoovers who mop up all dead things that swan in cellardyke was a one off ,if its as bad as they say then birds flying long distances are going to be dead before they reach this country as we all know birds that migrate have got to be fit .

 

They became contaminated by virus during defeathering and butchering of the bird, not thru eating it. They inhaled vast quantities of virus which multiplied in their lungs, disease spread to lung tissue. But that didn't kill them. What killed them was their own immune system going into overdrive and killing the diseased lung cells, punching holes in the lungs allowing fluid to seep into them. They basically drowned.. AI is not a nice death.

 

In answer to your vCJD question. I don't want to scare folk, or spread rumour, take this as AI expert Prof John Oxford's 'uncomfirmed theory' : After the 1918 flu pandemic receded, a couple of years later another equally terrifying pandemic swept the world, called at the time 'sleeping sickness' because it unexpectedly 'froze' people .. people literally were struck by this disease no matter where they were or what they were doing at the time - they went to sleep standing up etc., maintaining that same posture for the rest of their lives. Today's fancy name for it is 'encephalitis lethargica'. AI normally attacks the respiratory system. Oxford's 'theory' is that the cause of 'encephalitis lethargica' was pandemic flu virus attacking and damaging the brain.

Posted

seem to remember that they said bernards bio-security was better than required if thats the case no wild bird would get into the sheds so rules out that as carrier nope in my ever so humble opinion it will turn out just like the B.S.E. scare and be found to be transmitted by the food supply

       collect

           keith

Posted

thanks for that bruno a nice piece educational mmaterial just hope a dont fall asleep way mma eyes shut lmao

Posted

One thing that I can't work out as a result of the Hungarian and Bernard Matthews outbreaks is:-

 

Once the outbreak was reported in Hungary I would have expected that someone from DEFRA would have checked through the relevant channels to find out if any type of poultry had been imported from Hungary into the UK.

 

Also you would have expected that Bernard Matthews or one of his employees, knowing that they had turkeys from Hungary; would have got them checked out right away for avian flu in case they affected his stock.

 

So as far as I can see it, correct me if I am wrong, both DEFRA and Bernard Matthews have shown neglience in dealing with this problem. So in my opinion they must both take part of the blame for what happened.

 

PJ

Posted

Think we all have to calm down and get things in perspective here. H5N1 was first isolated in chickens in SCOTLAND in the 1950's ok a slightly different strain but its taken it 50 years to progress as much as it has. Not suggesting we should'nt take it seriously just get a bit of balance into this. Now how about talking about racing our doos or something?

Posted

27th of January... 30th of January... birds would have already been here... left before the 25th January. (21st I think...)

 

The dates are fair enough but the Bernard Matthews outbreak wasn't until around 10 days later, there should still have been been some for of check carried out by DEFRA as well as Bernard Matthews, because they must have had a doubt in the welfare of this stock as they arrived 5 days prior to an outbreak taking place in Hungary. So it had to be in the birds syetsm to have been passed on.

 

 

PJ

Posted
One thing that I can't work out as a result of the Hungarian and Bernard Matthews outbreaks is:-

 

Once the outbreak was reported in Hungary I would have expected that someone from DEFRA would have checked through the relevant channels to find out if any type of poultry had been imported from Hungary into the UK.

 

Also you would have expected that Bernard Matthews or one of his employees, knowing that they had turkeys from Hungary; would have got them checked out right away for avian flu in case they affected his stock.

 

So as far as I can see it, correct me if I am wrong, both DEFRA and Bernard Matthews have shown neglience in dealing with this problem. So in my opinion they must both take part of the blame for what happened.

 

PJ

 

DEFRA did do a risk assessment on the Hungarian outbreak on 24th January and concluded no risk of introduction here. RA at :-

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/monitoring/pdf/hpai-h5hungary240107.pdf

 

They also did another follow-up one on 9th February. Same conclusion.  :)

 

 

Posted
27th of January... 30th of January... birds would have already been here... left before the 25th January. (21st I think...)

 

Safe enough conclusion based on the information at that time, Roland. But not on the info made known in the last two days. The index case before then was always one location, one shed. Biosecurity was said to be 110% so didn't spread to other 21 sheds. We now know that there were 4 infected sheds, and we now know of a processing plant where biosecurity has been questioned, and we now know of a trail into Hungary, to a bernard matthews plant, and tonight (BBC News24 1000pm)we know that plant in Hungary used an abbatoir not far from the Hungary outbreak.

 

What we don't know is how long had there been sickness on the Suffolk site and did this sickness occur before the initial deaths in the 'one' shed?

Posted

Safe enough conclusion based on the information at that time, Roland. But not on the info made known in the last two days. The index case before then "was always one location, one shed. Biosecurity was said to be 110% so didn't spread to other 21 sheds. We now know that there were 4 infected sheds, and we now know of a processing plant where biosecurity has been questioned, and we now know of a trail into Hungary, to a bernard matthews plant, and tonight (BBC News24 1000pm)we know that plant in Hungary used an abbatoir not far from the Hungary outbreak.

 

What we don't know is how long had there been sickness on the Suffolk site and did this sickness occur before the initial deaths in the 'one' shed?" -

 

Bruno

 

 

oh no what can we doo pity the poor guys who want to race turkeys from "Rennes" next year'. Oh wait a minute there is alot of Turkeys go to "Rennes" every year  calm down lads its only goverment ministers earning their money""""""""""

 

 

Posted

this outbreak is turning into a defra fiasco,they are now considering recalling processed turkeys from the shelves of shops/supermarkets to avoid the chance of this flu spreading nationwide,...wait a min didnt they state that there was no chance that the food chain was unsafe and if there was a chance of infection it would be safe if the food was cooked right?....its slowly coming to the surface that defra and the goverment dont really know wot is safe and wot is not!

one thing sticks in my mind ....why was this country still importing processed food from an infected country when most countries like france/japan have banned our processed meat from theirs?...just another case of the goverment dragging their backsides ....paul :(

Posted

Isn't it strange how the threat that  became a reality that was being dealt with has now become another threat,i.e. it MIGHT be in the food chain and other animals MAY eat this hypothetical infected meat that MIGHT be in the food chain, and then they COULD infect wild birds which in turn COULD infect turkeys.  This is the result of Risk Assessment commmittees, the modern phenomenen, who all sit round a table and try to think of anything that COULD POSSIBLY happen. These are the people we are up against.

I thought the news that this disease was spread 'in house' was good news, I'm not so sure now.

Posted

Did a bit of business studies not that long ago. They were based on case studies, how this organisation did that and had a successful outcome because of it, while this other one did that and went to the wall because of it. 'It' being business strategy.

 

One such case (bad news, can't recall my reference!) was of a faulty production line leading to a dodgy food product on the shelves. As soon as it became known, CEO made immediate decision:  immediate recall of the product from shelves, bin it, and get untainted stuff out asap. His action saved the company and the product because he recognised the need to maintain consumer confidence in the product and the company at all times, irrespective of cost because at the end of the day it may cost you your business..

 

This Government and Bernard Matthews Company clearly lack that knowledge: any suggestion that anything is wrong, don't rely on a stupid 'perfectly safe IF' message, get the stuff off the shelves and replace it pronto.

 

 

Posted

wonder how long these infected sheds will be not in use for now,and can bernaud matthews name ever be the same again?,think this will stick with his company now and surely will cost them millions of lost revenue.we have a sun valley poultry processing factory here in abergavenny and makes u wonder the possiblities of more outbreaks,even with them as they have processing factorys world wide.should all meat/poultry factorys be more closesly monitored and without the owners knowledge. as a m8 of mine says that the premisses thats about to be checked gets a warning from the authorities prior to calling.....paul :)

Posted
this outbreak is turning into a defra fiasco,they are now considering recalling processed turkeys from the shelves of shops/supermarkets to avoid the chance of this flu spreading nationwide,...wait a min didnt they state that there was no chance that the food chain was unsafe and if there was a chance of infection it would be safe if the food was cooked right?....its slowly coming to the surface that defra and the goverment dont really know wot is safe and wot is not!

one thing sticks in my mind ....why was this country still importing processed food from an infected country when most countries like france/japan have banned our processed meat from theirs?...just another case of the goverment dragging their backsides ....paul :(

 

NO THEY ARE NOT! Ad far from it... they say they very much doubt that that will happen, BUT OF COURSE are OBVIOUSLY monitoring the situation. Golly talk about from 'One line you can draw a universe'!

Posted

 

NO THEY ARE NOT! Ad far from it... they say they very much doubt that that will happen, BUT OF COURSE are OBVIOUSLY monitoring the situation. Golly talk about from 'One line you can draw a universe'!

 

just seen on sky news ,...super markets are facing a possible nationwide recall of processed turkey products in an attemp tohalt the spread of bird flu!

 

sir david king said it was (quite feasible) that the disease had been spread from hut to hut at the bernaud matthews turkey plant in holton where the outbreak occured?....does this mean that possibly affected birds may have already entered the food chain?.

 

Posted

They just as well recall them because I can't see many people buying them. I sure the supermarkets would love a product recall to save themselves the problem of out-of-date turkey products on their hands which will be probably classed as hazardous waste and dealt with accordingly.

It would be better all round to stop the what-if brigade to recall and dispose of all related products to restore public confidence and lay this matter to rest. The last thing we need is the sight of Bernard Matthews turkey products languishing on supermarket shelves reminding everyone of the situation.

Better out of sight and out of mind.

Posted

 

just seen on sky news ,...super markets are facing a possible nationwide recall of processed turkey products in an attemp tohalt the spread of bird flu!

 

sir david king said it was (quite feasible) that the disease had been spread from hut to hut at the bernaud matthews turkey plant in holton where the outbreak occured?....does this mean that possibly affected birds may have already entered the food chain?.

 

Poultry industry have gone deadly silent over the past few days. But to their credit, 'a spokesman' was quoted today on BBC News 24 saying that the stuff in the shops today would have been 'processed' 13 weeks ago.

 

Any recall ... and I am in favour of it ... needs to be done now. Not really about preventing the spread of anything other than fear, alarm and mistrust in the government and the industry and everything they say or do in the future. Purely to restore public confidence showing that human health takes precendence over purely economic matters.. and save a company and an industry as a side effect.

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