The Bernard Matthews Connection

[Diamond dave]

I think you guys might be jumpin the gun a little bit. I saw the same report on the news. But I also heard today from a poultry worker that those sheds are all self enclosed and it is more or less impossible for anything to get in or out. The officials were all surprised by this outbreak because there has been no significant migration of birds from Eastern Eorope as yet.

I'm betting that this infection has come in on the feed or something similar.

I also heard on the radio today that Bernard (bootiful) Matthews also has business interests in Hungary where the other most recent outbreak has occurred ???????????

D.D.

[Guest]

thats great..if he did bring it into the uk from his other businesses in hungry ,he,s going to get around ?4-?5 each bird in compensation.i think if he has brought it into the country and found to be then some sort of compensation needs paying to the thousands being spent to keep this deadly disease from breaking out elsewhere.from his pocket...the amount of birds kept in those sheds theres bound to be some kind of stress on those birds....paul

[Guest]

yea dd m8,  they maybe buying cheap feed from the continent and its a bit dodgy,as uve stated m8,these sheds are supposed to be safe...if thats the right word ,from this flu,and no birds can enter these sheds.

also these vents blow outwards not inwards so how on earth can a germ enter that way.another idea they havent raised is they have migrant workers at this place and could possibly be that one of them have come from hungry or where ever and brought the flu here...who knows ...maybe it will never be made public where it came from?...paul

[Guest Vic]

I honestly don't believe that peregrines would reduce in numbers through no racing. Just utter codswallop!   Regarding the Avian Flu, it does seem to me rather strange, strange, strange, that there have been only two outbreaks in the whole of Europe, here and Hungary, both over a thousand miles

apart yet both owned by the same guy. : : Vic.

[Elvan Willgrass]

How do you mean (both owned by the same guy)

[Guest]

I think I need to sound a warning about jumping to conclusions and witch-hunts - the Hungary outbreak in January was amongst farmed free-range GEESE on a farm there, not amongst turkeys confined in a supposedly biosecure shed.

[Guest Vic]

They belong to the Bernard Matthews processing chain, I am led to believe.

[Guest Vic]

I may be wrong, but this is no witch, hunt far from it. I was told he had the place in Hungary, but it seemes it might have been false information  .

[jons_pigeons]

http://www.ukbusinesspark.co.uk/bes66624.htm

[Diamond dave]

Its not intended to be a witch hunt - I got the information from a conversation on radio 5 earlier this morning - You have to admit it's a helluv a coincidence?????????

D.D.

[Guest]

I've done a similar websearch. Bernard Matthews in Hungary yes. Turkeys, yes.

 

But don't think the company does Geese or anything else or even free-range ... I can't get the English version of the SaGa website to respond to product enquiry so can't be sure ...  but would have thought DEFRA would be on this like a shot if there was even the slightest company connection between two AI outbreaks. His whole operation EU-Wide would also be stopped dead.

[Diamond dave]

Bruno,

 

As I said -"Its a helluva coincidence" and I am sure that Defra will be investigating but

that said, if there is a connection how do you think it might have happened?

 

D.D.

[Guest]

Bruno,

 

As I said -"Its a helluva coincidence" and I am sure that Defra will be investigating but

that said, if there is a connection how do you think it might have happened?

 

D.D.

 

 

It just doesn't add up. All last week, just about every person interviewed on TV had nothing but positive things to say about the Bernard Matthews' Suffolk operation, the folk that work there, the folk that live there, the district and county council folks ... etc. There are 21 sheds on that site, only one was affected. If H5N1 can't cross 1000 yards between sheds on one Matthews' site, can't see it crossing between sheds on two Matthews' sites over 1000 miles apart.

 

Ask Bilco - came down the Old Silk Road on a camel's back.  ;D

 

 

[Guest Paulo]

round 2 ding ding lol

 

bet matthews has been giving them dodgy feed! Should get Jamie Oliver round to open a can of whuparse on him. Love the way they were going pigeon racings banned when it hasn't even started yet. We are just an easy target to blame for it.

 

Instead of pumping all this money to charity every year we should put some back into the sport to fight ignorance like this. Some of that lolly could also be spent on helping new starters.

[johno]

there are some seriously misleading if not dangerous posts here. the outbreak in hungary was in the far south east of the country. the bernard mathews operation is in the north west. like comparing kent and skye. hard to make a connection. it seems some people are more entitled to hold an opinion than others. i would think the place for the scientific debate was among the scientists. professional experts who have spent years studying and have years of hands on experience. an old saying would ring true i feel. "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of the wrong people".

[Guest]

there are some seriously misleading if not dangerous posts here. the outbreak in hungary was in the far south east of the country. the bernard mathews operation is in the north west. like comparing kent and skye. hard to make a connection. it seems some people are more entitled to hold an opinion than others. i would think the place for the scientific debate was among the scientists. professional experts who have spent years studying and have years of hands on experience. an old saying would ring true i feel. "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of the wrong people".

 

To be fair, I think the previous posts have all been about the need for informed opinion based on facts, rather than opinion based on rumour and speculation.

 

And your  old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of the wrong people" suffers from much the same thing in that it can be taken as meaning many things. If you apply it and your opinon about scientific debate, to two pages on DEFRA's website: the one designed to support the Leisure and Tourism Industry where the risk assessment of wild waterfowl spreading AI countrywide is said to be so negligible that the countryside can remain open; and the other designed to support the Poultry Industry where the same risk assessment has been used to show the risk of racing pigeons spreading AI countrywide is said to be so high, that a ban on racing is needed and implemented.

 

Both of these risk assessments are based on the same scientific paper. You can view it on this website. Follow the link:

 

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1124999952/s-860/

[Roland]

Bruno wrote ... To be fair, I think the previous posts have all been about the need for informed opinion based on facts, rather than opinion based on rumour and speculation.

Well I don't honestly believe that MOST are happy with the plain facts. Many - perhaps to many of us - look for 'Between the lines, and then many state a 'What Might have been', or a 'Could it really mean ...' That is the negative side I believe, one that promotes more harm the Definately good. I also believe some do it not only to gain attension, but because it mae them feel important ... Legends in their own mind.

[johno]

"To be fair, I think the previous posts have all been about the need for informed opinion based on facts, rather than opinion based on rumour and speculation."  

Bruno how do you possibly come to this conclusion. No one had pointed out or mentioned that the Bernard Mathews connection was nigh impossible based on the geographics of the situation. Your comments on a little knowledge being dangerous highlight exactly the point I was trying to make. In reading any article it is important that the reader takes account of the wider aspects of the content. This issue has many spin off affects other than health. The time scales involved on the issues contained in the wider spectrum are also crucial. The simplistic parochial type approach which you are advocating can be dangerous even although undertaken with the best intentions. The implications of an outbreak of H5N1 especially if it mutates are mind blowing. The implications of the current outbreak solely on ecomic terms are also mind blowing. The possible cost of compensation. The possible job losses. The follow on effect on dependant industries like feeding wholesalers, implement and equipment wholesalers, transport companies, we must consider this. In the scheme of things we are but a speck of dust. You start your post with the line "to be fair" I do not see any attempt to be fair to the Bernard Mathews companies who have no one here to speak up for them. As a moderator you have in the past used this ideology to allow you to remove posts. I suggest consistency is not being applied in this case. As you say I am only posting facts as I see them. A personal opinion on an open forum. What it is all about I think.

[Roland]

I think I need to sound a warning about jumping to conclusions and witch-hunts - the Hungary outbreak in January was amongst farmed free-range GEESE on a farm there, not amongst turkeys confined in a supposedly biosecure shed.

 

And me... I am the worlds worst for jumping to conclusions, and finding out I'm making 2 =2 making 5.

Just this past week - end I heard a bit of this and that. From some regular guys. Never read up, let alone checked any fact... So I repeat in  a contec=xt ... and get a rollicking, which I may well deserve for not checking out facts, or truthfulness of what I spouted. Wasn't to be honest bothered one way or the other... But spouted what may be an untruth... or a part truth. Now I have the gut ache and a feeling of helplessnes that I opened my big mouth and spouted in what all reality hade nowt to do with me. Oh for a bid zipper!

 

 

[Guest]

"To be fair, I think the previous posts have all been about the need for informed opinion based on facts, rather than opinion based on rumour and speculation."  

Bruno how do you possibly come to this conclusion. No one had pointed out or mentioned that the Bernard Mathews connection was nigh impossible based on the geographics of the situation. Your comments on a little knowledge being dangerous highlight exactly the point I was trying to make. In reading any article it is important that the reader takes account of the wider aspects of the content. This issue has many spin off affects other than health. The time scales involved on the issues contained in the wider spectrum are also crucial. The simplistic parochial type approach which you are advocating can be dangerous even although undertaken with the best intentions. The implications of an outbreak of H5N1 especially if it mutates are mind blowing. The implications of the current outbreak solely on ecomic terms are also mind blowing. The possible cost of compensation. The possible job losses. The follow on effect on dependant industries like feeding wholesalers, implement and equipment wholesalers, transport companies, we must consider this. In the scheme of things we are but a speck of dust. You start your post with the line "to be fair" I do not see any attempt to be fair to the Bernard Mathews companies who have no one here to speak up for them. As a moderator you have in the past used this ideology to allow you to remove posts. I suggest consistency is not being applied in this case. As you say I am only posting facts as I see them. A personal opinion on an open forum. What it is all about I think.

 

I’ll try and answer your points.

 

1. This thread is actually two merged. The principle reason for merger was that posts on Bernard Matthews were being put up on the two threads. That point is noted by me on the Moderator’s Board: 'H5N1 alternative view' and 'source of infection' had same folk cross-posting about bernard matthews and the hungary outbreak, between both threads. So I've merged these.'

 

 

2. Posts 17 & 18 here on the merged thread are the first on the Bernard Matthews ‘connection’. As both a moderator’s view, and my own personal view, I posted No19:

 

"I think I need to sound a warning about jumping to conclusions and witch-hunts - the Hungary outbreak in January was amongst farmed free-range GEESE on a farm there, not amongst turkeys confined in a supposedly biosecure shed. "

 

3. Posts 20,21,22,23 continued 17 & 18’s theme. I posted no24:

 

"I've done a similar websearch. Bernard Matthews in Hungary yes. Turkeys, yes.

 

But don't think the company does Geese or anything else or even free-range ... I can't get the English version of the SaGa website to respond to product enquiry so can't be sure ...  but would have thought DEFRA would be on this like a shot if there was even the slightest company connection between two AI outbreaks. His whole operation EU-Wide would also be stopped dead."

 

4. Post 25 (a) questioned my thinking in my previous posts and ( asked how I thought the outbreak had occurred. I replied post 26:

 

(a) "It just doesn't add up. All last week, just about every person interviewed on TV had nothing but positive things to say about the Bernard Matthews' Suffolk operation, the folk that work there, the folk that live there, the district and county council folks ... etc. There are 21 sheds on that site, only one was affected. If H5N1 can't cross 1000 yards between sheds on one Matthews' site, can't see it crossing between sheds on two Matthews' sites over 1000 miles apart. "

 

( "Ask Bilco - came down the Old Silk Road on a camel's back. "  

 

Your own original post was No31. The whole train of my own posts above, as a moderator and a person who prefers to deal in facts, was always to show that this theme - an allegation about Bernard Mathews - simply didn’t add up. "To be fair, I think the previous posts have all been about the need for informed opinion based on facts, rather than opinion based on rumour and speculation" is a reasonable conclusion to draw on that theme.

 

 

The new allegations in your latest post No41:  

 

© that ‘No one had pointed out or mentioned that the Bernard Mathews connection was nigh impossible based on the geographics of the situation’ doesn't stand up. I said for example in post No26 “If H5N1 can't cross 1000 yards between sheds on one Matthews' site, can't see it crossing between sheds on two Matthews' sites over 1000 miles apart." And I hope you will see from this post too that I reckoned a camel spreading the disease was more likely than the Bernard Matthews’ operation doing it.

 

And (d) “I do not see any attempt to be fair to the Bernard Mathews companies who have no one here to speak up for them. As a moderator you have in the past used this ideology to allow you to remove posts. I suggest consistency is not being applied in this case.” I hope you now realise my role in this was ‘playing devils advocate’ defending Bernard Mathews companies against what I showed to be totally unfounded and highly unlikely allegations.

 

And (e)  “The simplistic parochial type approach which you are advocating can be dangerous even although undertaken with the best intentions.” Please note that this is, with all due respect to the person who created it and those who posted it, a parochial issues thread. It’s about pigeon-related alternative viewpoints on the Suffolk outbreak. My own views were:

 

 

5. Post No4: "Placing restrictions on 'pigeons' (not just racing pigeons and pigeon racing ... it covers anyone who keeps any kind of bird: a canary, a parrot or even a couple of pet fantails) immediately places a link between pigeons and the spread of bird flu both in the media mind and the public mind. You've seen several references by the media blaming 'pigeons' for the current outbreak."

 

6. Post No17: "Yes, pigeon racing is banned but as WE know there is no pigeon racing at this time of year and hasn't been since September 2006. But not one of the 'pundits' has mentioned this on TV ... and this is where everyone is expected to get the information and the facts from according to government ministers interviewed on news programs ... so it would make a very interesting question to have asked on air by these pundits 'what possible effect on the spread of bird flu, can a ban have on an activity that has not taken place since September 2006?"

 

 

If you browse the main Avian Flu board, which is very broad-spectrum and home to all the important issues and information, you will see that I hold views similar to your own ‘speck of dust’.

 

But in both a Human Health and a Public Order context, it remains important for pigeon fanciers that they and their birds are not seen ‘in any way’ to be involved in the spread of bird flu. ‘In any way’ includes the constant ‘AI-link’ with pigeons made by the media, and the ‘AI-link’ with pigeon racing made by DEFRA placing restrictions on pigeon racing. That is far from a parochial issue in my opinion, it’s the single biggest ‘pigeon issue’ and other ‘pigeon issues’ such as racing the channel, sales & shows are ‘speck of dust’ beside it.

 

 

 

 

[Pompey Mick]

Could this be favourable news, if this is found to be true then it would mean that the Avian Flu was brought into this country as a lot of people suspected.

 

LONDON, Feb 8 (Reuters) - Scientists investigating the outbreak last week of bird flu in a British flock of turkeys said on Thursday there might be a link with an outbreak in Hungary in January.

 

Contradicting statements by British officials in Brussels on Tuesday that it was unlikely there was a Hungarian link, the government said there was indeed a possible connection.

 

"Our investigations have shown that one possible route of infection is poultry product imported from Hungary," said deputy chief vet Fred Landeg.

 

"The company involved have voluntarily agreed to temporarily suspend the movement of poultry products between their outlets in the UK and Hungary until the investigation is complete," he added.

 

The cull of 160,000 turkeys on a farm in Suffolk, eastern England, where the H5N1 strain of bird flu broke out was completed on Monday.

 

Russia and Japan banned British poultry imports after the country's first outbreak of the H5N1 strain in farmed poultry that sparked the cull.

 

Workers wearing white protective suits, gloves and masks took the livestock away in crates to be gassed after discovery of the disease on the farm run by Europe's largest turkey producer, Bernard Matthews.

 

The H5N1 virus has spread into the Middle East, Africa and Europe since it re-emerged in Asia in 2003 and although it remains largely an animal disease, it can kill people who come into close contact with infected birds. The virus has killed 166 people in the past four years.

[Guest]

Isn't it strange, they are saying it could be imports from Hungary......informed comment on here said no chance!! It's a good thing science isn't an exact science, 'cause sometimes it can make you (me) look pretty smart and other times it can make you (me) look pretty dumb!!

And before anyone says it I know I don't even have to try!!!

[Pompey Mick]

Here is a more in depth report on the latest developments on the Avian Flu outbreak. It would seem {as suspected} that there is a direct link between Hungary and the Bernard Matthew  farm

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Observer can reveal that a consignment of turkeys, which had been partly processed, travelled by lorry from the Hungarian plant and arrived in the UK a few days before January 27, the date when farm workers began to notice the first signs of illness in the turkey chicks at the farm near Holton, Suffolk.

A Whitehall source said there were concerns about bio-security at the processing plant, which lies adjacent to the Holton farm, where the infected birds were found. Officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) are looking at allegations that scraps of meat are sometimes left lying around the floor of the plant and are scavenged by rats and wild birds, creating a possible route for infection.

 

Defra was aware last Monday that a consignment of meat had been taken into the plant but it was not revealed to the public. The environment secretary, David Miliband, made no mention of it when he made a statement to the House of Commons that day. Nor was it revealed by Lord Rooker, the agriculture minister, in the Lords earlier today. Lord Rooker confirmed that there had been no importation of chicks or eggs into Britain, but did not mention the possibility that carcasses had been transported into the plant.

 

British health officials also told the European Union last Tuesday they did not believe there was a link between the outbreak of bird flu at the Bernard Matthews farm and two recent cases in Hungary where Matthews also has poultry interests.

 

A Defra spokesman said last night: 'The government is developing its investigation into what might have caused the outbreak of avian influenza in the Suffolk poultry farm, following preliminary scientific tests showing the viruses in Suffolk and recent outbreaks in Hungary may well be identical.

 

'Along with a number of other hypotheses Defra, the Food Standards Agency and the Health Protection Agency are investigating the possibility of a link between the Hungarian outbreaks, poultry meat from Hungary and the introduction of disease in the farm in Suffolk.

 

'The investigation will include arrangements at the company's adjacent plant for food processing.

 

'Scientific advice remains that the risk to human health is negligible, and Food Standards Agency advice remains the same, that properly cooked poultry is safe to eat.'

 

Deputy Chief Vet, Fred Landeg said: 'Our investigations have shown that one possible route of infection is poultry products imported from Hungary. It is important that this is investigated thoroughly, along with all the other possible routes.

 

'We are working in partnership with the Food Standards Agency and the Health Protection Agency to carry out a thorough investigation.

 

'We are also working in close contact with the Hungarian authorities and the European Commission.

 

'The company involved have voluntarily agreed to temporarily suspend the movement of poultry products between their outlets in the UK and Hungary until the investigation is complete."

 

Professor Pat Troop, Chief Executive of the Health Protection Agency said: 'We are continuing to work closely with Defra and the FSA. Should any public health issues arise as part of these investigations we will of course follow these up and carry out a full risk assessment to ensure the public are advised and protected.'

 

Dr Judith Hilton, Head of Microbiological Safety at the FSA said: 'Food Standards Agency advice has been and remains that avian flu does not pose a food safety risk for UK consumers.'

 

The British and Hungarian outbreaks, the first in Europe for more than six months, occurred within days of one another. Officials in Brussels said no wild birds had been discovered bearing the virus, despite widespread monitoring.

 

The Observer understands that the information about the meat consignment was considered by Defra officials to be 'commercially confidential' and a decision was initially taken not to put it into the public domain.

 

The government confirmed earlier this week that the strain of the H5N1 virus which was identified in one turkey shed the previous Friday was the same strain found last month in Hungary, where an outbreak among geese on a farm prompted the slaughter of thousands of birds.

 

A flock of 3,000 geese on the infected farm near Szentes in southern Hungary was destroyed last month after they were found to have H5N1. The virus first appeared in the country in February last year in wild geese, swans and domestic poultry. Britain's £3.4bn poultry industry, which produces 800 million birds a year, will now be under scrutiny.

 

Defra has continued to investigate the movement of people and animals on and off the farm, including any links the farm may have had with Hungary, where there have been a series of outbreaks in the last month and where Matthews owns Saga Foods, the country's largest poultry company. His plant in Sarvar lies 165 miles from the recent outbreak in the south of the country, in Sventes.

 

Last Monday Miliband ruled out claims that the outbreak of bird flu could have been caused by chicks imported from Hungary.

 

'In respect of the chicks, they all came from within this country, so there is no Hungarian connection,' he said. 'The fact is the factory involved in the Hungarian outbreak is not a Bernard Matthews factory.'

 

He added: 'We have not dismissed any suggestions. We are pursuing all possible avenues of inquiry. It remains the case that the most likely reason or route of this problem does lie in a link with the wild bird population but that does not mean we should not pursue any other avenues in a serious way with full speed, and that is what we are doing.'

 

A spokeswoman for Bernard Matthews said this evening: 'Bernard Matthews continues to work closely with Defra to assist with its ongoing investigation. We are cooperating fully and as a precautionary measure we have volunteered to cease any movements to and from Hungary.

 

'We want to reassure consumers that Bernard Matthews products are perfectly safe to eat.'

 

[Guest]

>:(just mentioned on 5 news update looking into a link to hungarian outbreak ????????                                            : : : :  andy

[Diamond dave]

"volunteered to cease any movements to and from Hungary".

How noble of Mr. Matthews !!!!!!!!

If he is responsible for this mess, can,t we all sue the bar steward?

I'm sorry but this all too much of a coincidence. Whats more annoying is they are still pointing the finger at the humble "wild bird". - does anyone know if there has been any migration of wild birds into this country yet?

Again, if he is responsible he should be made to cover all the vet bills and Defra costs.

D.D.