What if my club don't accept ETS?

[THE FIFER]

 

 

I've been thro the Site 'VFTR', 'Latest from Peter Bryant' and my BHWs but can't find his piece on Rule 230.

 

My BHWs only go back to July 13th, and in the letters page, page 4 'ETS' a letter signed by J H Burns begins:-

 

"In reply to Mr Bryant's comments about clubs introducing domestic rules against the use of ETS. Mr Bryant should also look at the RPRA rules. He quotes Rule 230 allows all members to use ETS, but fails to carry on and explain what the rest of Rule 230 means....."

 

Now because of the number of letters on ETS, I haven't been reading letters page, but I do read VFTR so that is where I likely read it. If someone still has a VFTR prior to 13th July, an explanation of the 2nd part of Rule 230 is given there. From memory, think he said it was meant to mean that officials weren't expected to work with a system they knew nothing about and had to be trained in the ets systems the club used.

 

Didn't we have a discussion somewhere on the Site about that training?

 

 

its in the official 2007 ets rules under ELECTRONIC TIMING SYSTEMS, QUOTE: AND THE OFFICIALS ARE COMPETENT AND WILLING TO USE IT

 

[carl]

 

 

i i think the last para in rule 230, QUOTE: "AND THE OFFICIALS ARE COMPETENT AND WILLING TO USE IT" i think its the "WILLING TO USE IT" part which gives them the say so, answers ur question.

 

 

Sorry for being thick here,but if my clocksetter refuses to set my ets will i be able to get another member to do it,or even another club clocksetter.When i phoned asking Mark Palmer a few questions im sure he asid as long as someone other than me can set my clock,does it need to be the official clocksetter..

 

thanks guys

[blackjack]

Its interesting to see different views on this are club is going along the lines of compentant and willing and nobody is willing. If as one person said a letter is sent to Mr Bryant objecting and it got through who could force anybody to do it !. We are a small  rural club with a 40mile by 20 mile radius and some 18 members .

We are out of nearly every other clubs radius so what happens ! you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. The club might split because of one person we will wait and see .

[THE FIFER]

 

Sorry for being thick here,but if my clocksetter refuses to set my ets will i be able to get another member to do it,or even another club clocksetter.When i phoned asking Mark Palmer a few questions im sure he asid as long as someone other than me can set my clock,does it need to be the official clocksetter..

 

thanks guys

 

as long as the officials allow its use and they have the equipment and someone able to set them its ok, it doesnt have to be ur official clock setter, so long as they have been elected to do so. look at rule 233 above.

 

 

[carl]

 

as long as the officials allow its use and they have the equipment and someone able to set them its ok, it doesnt have to be ur official clock setter, so long as they have been elected to do so. look at rule 233 above.

 

 

Thanks for that.I know already our clocksetter wont touch ets,im the only one intrested in a 26 membership club,dont want to upset people but do want a fair chance against people in my fed using ets,i also like the fact i wont have to chase birds around after a race..some people love the buzz of clocking birds,i do to but dont like to grab them after a race as i have spoilt birds in the past..

[Guest]

 

 

its in the official 2007 ets rules under ELECTRONIC TIMING SYSTEMS, QUOTE: AND THE OFFICIALS ARE COMPETENT AND WILLING TO USE IT< unquote, so if officials are not willing to use it then it cant be used, so does this mean that officials in a club are willing to use it and members purchase the systems and use it, but then the next year new officials are put in office, who then say no we are not willing to use it???????    this is leaveing things open for anti ets and for ets members to keep proposing their people for taking the official posts, and could mean you have to wait to see each year who gets in to see if you are going to be using or not, it seems to me that the members are not getting their say with the rpra,

 

Agree with your reading, ETS on/off every year, so rule as 'being read on forum' just doesn't hold water.

 

There was definitely a question asked on this rule in BHW letters page prior to July 13th, and Peter Bryant responded to it. I do not think that he responded via the letters page. (not exactly the ideal place to advise membership of the meaning of rules, no guarantee that it would get read).

 

Maybe one of the affected members should email Peter Bryant  on Monday for clarification?  

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

 

Sorry for being thick here,but if my clocksetter refuses to set my ets will i be able to get another member to do it,or even another club clocksetter.When i phoned asking Mark Palmer a few questions im sure he asid as long as someone other than me can set my clock,does it need to be the official clocksetter..

 

thanks guys

 

Hi Carl why dont you suggest at the club that you are willing to do the marking and setting for any members that want to use the ETS, I,m pretty sure that once one or two see how simple and timesaving it is a lot more will use it,there is no expence to the club as most systems now offer all the club equipment FREE if only one member buys a set up.

[me]

i mentioned to our secretary that because of my health i might get ets next year and he replied ( if u do then i resign from club as i wont set it) so i mentioned to other members and the majority said they follow him as they are too old to change , so either i carry on struggling in loft looking like something out of star wars  (mask  , gloves , coat , and oxygen tank  jus to time birds in , or i give birds up next year , ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sorry for hyjacking  u post  solo .

 

If your are affected as badly as that your welfare as well as the birds welfare are the most important things to be considered and I would strongly recommend you give serious consideration to giving up the sport.

 

 

[Roland]

 

Hi Carl why dont you suggest at the club that you are willing to do the marking and setting for any members that want to use the ETS, I,m pretty sure that once one or two see how simple and timesaving it is a lot more will use it,there is no expence to the club as most systems now offer all the club equipment FREE if only one member buys a set up.

 

And first off offer and pay for all the club expenses, GIVEN of course in the knowledge and fact that you can't, won't AND SHOULDN'T EXPECT ANY REFUNDS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ... FOR THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

Mind if the 'Fairness' of allowing non ET clocks the mere respect and 15 seconds allowance, then of course this agaoin wouldn't be a problem. Still, out side of me and one other - on this site - no one is in agreement, because they want their and cake and eat it!

[Guest]

 

And first off offer and pay for all the club expenses, GIVEN of course in the knowledge and fact that you can't, won't AND SHOULDN'T EXPECT ANY REFUNDS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ... FOR THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

Mind if the 'Fairness' of allowing non ET clocks the mere respect and 15 seconds allowance, then of course this agaoin wouldn't be a problem. Still, out side of me and one other - on this site - no one is in agreement, because they want their and cake and eat it!

 

ETS doesn't cost the club anything. Its already posted on this thread - and on plenty others - and in the pigeon press - that ETS firms will supply the club's first ETS member with a free system for the club.

 

Your piece on 15 seconds 'allowance' smacks of blackmail ...

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

Roland how much allowance do you think should be given to someone who as to go in the loft chase the bird around,get the ring off and then clock it in,over someone who as a speed trap and a T3 hung round his neck with a kwikstart,I would think about 20 seconds what would you say.

[Pompey Mick]

I am a Club Secretary and my Club will be using the ETS next season courtesy of a grant which I applied for.

What I will say, from the fanciers point of view ETS is wonderfully simple, in fact marking and checking from their point of view is completely automatic.

The work lies in the hands of the officials whose job it will be to do the preliminary groundwork  to allow the marking and checking to take place.

Every pigeon has to be linked to its ETS ring, which involves the typing of every ring no, sex & colour into the system and syncronising with the members clocks and then with the pigeon.

Also the software has to have the races entered into it, and then if you are manually importing the data into a race results program then all the master timer setting and checking times are unique to each member, resulting in more work.

I can quite understand Secretaries baulking at this extra work load, especially if they are not computer literate, it can be quite daunting especially if things go wrong. I am not especially computer literate and I am at this moment feeling my way into the system which I have on trial.

With 25 members and an average of 40 birds per loft I am looking at having to register close on a 1000 Old Birds, Young Birds will be a bit easier as you can enter a sequence of rings, i.e.   GB 07N31611-31640.

To my mind it would be wrong to try and force ETS on to any Secretaries who do not feel comfortable with this sort of work, if you want ETS in your Club you will need competent members to stand up and volunteer to do the administration, or stick with manual clocking.

The more members who get involved with the administrative side of this system the easier it will be, in fact it is imperative that at least two members are competent with all aspects of ETS, after all we have Clock Committees in Clubs for manual clocks and there is a need for similar committees for ETS use, more so on the administrative side.

[me]

I am a Club Secretary and my Club will be using the ETS next season courtesy of a grant which I applied for.

What I will say, from the fanciers point of view ETS is wonderfully simple, in fact marking and checking from their point of view is completely automatic.

The work lies in the hands of the officials whose job it will be to do the preliminary groundwork  to allow the marking and checking to take place.

Every pigeon has to be linked to its ETS ring, which involves the typing of every ring no, sex & colour into the system and syncronising with the members clocks and then with the pigeon.

Also the software has to have the races entered into it, and then if you are manually importing the data into a race results program then all the master timer setting and checking times are unique to each member, resulting in more work.

I can quite understand Secretaries baulking at this extra work load, especially if they are not computer literate, it can be quite daunting especially if things go wrong. I am not especially computer literate and I am at this moment feeling my way into the system which I have on trial.

With 25 members and an average of 40 birds per loft I am looking at having to register close on a 1000 Old Birds, Young Birds will be a bit easier as you can enter a sequence of rings, i.e.   GB 07N31611-31640.

To my mind it would be wrong to try and force ETS on to any Secretaries who do not feel comfortable with this sort of work, if you want ETS in your Club you will need competent members to stand up and volunteer to do the administration, or stick with manual clocking.

The more members who get involved with the administrative side of this system the easier it will be, in fact it is imperative that at least two members are competent with all aspects of ETS, after all we have Clock Committees in Clubs for manual clocks and there is a need for similar committees for ETS use, more so on the administrative side.

 

All very true lad but it will not save pigeon racing in fact it will hasten its end sad but true!

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

 

All very true lad but it will not save pigeon racing in fact it will hasten its end sad but true!

 

 

Very sorry but I just cannot see any reasoning at all in your statement.

[Roland]

Black Mail Bruno ... because one speaks the reality eh!

Nothing like the low down sneaky way of contriving to push it through, but then that is fine I guess.

I'd have one tomorrow like a shot if there was a sensible 15 seconds allowance to thoses - for whatever reason(s) - didn't, couldn't have one.

No not blackmail, but good honest reality and in the very essence os sportmanship, which sadly is thrown out of the window when the 'Can have' smell an avantage ovet tha 'Can't or Won't haves! hat

Yes my post smacks not only of fairness, but at the very fundemental way of pushing forward and getting an amiacable end to resolve this problem .... like the independat survey suggested.

AND above all KEEPING many members flying.... a small but effective step in the very interest of our sport ( though not recognised as such - and to even benefit it!

But short sightedness and greed will not allow this obviously, so the very roots will pay the price of higher racing in the not too distance future.

And Bruno and all, if this is as great as you all keeping pointing out the benefits, then surely your own benefits should be secondary to the benefit of the sport as a whole. But that is not the object obviously, as likewise is the wanting of the ET. No the benefit are just a ruse to the 'Cans' to have one! Never mind the 'DCA' no one believes that for a moment!

[Roland]

Yes Me! The ET will cost the sport very dearly, and none are so blind who  will not see! Let alone want too!

[Guest]

Black Mail Bruno ... because one speaks the reality eh!

Nothing like the low down sneaky way of contriving to push it through, but then that is fine I guess.

I'd have one tomorrow like a shot if there was a sensible 15 seconds allowance to thoses - for whatever reason(s) - didn't, couldn't have one.

No not blackmail, but good honest reality and in the very essence os sportmanship, which sadly is thrown out of the window when the 'Can have' smell an avantage ovet tha 'Can't or Won't haves! hat

Yes my post smacks not only of fairness, but at the very fundemental way of pushing forward and getting an amiacable end to resolve this problem .... like the independat survey suggested.

AND above all KEEPING many members flying.... a small but effective step in the very interest of our sport ( though not recognised as such - and to even benefit it!

But short sightedness and greed will not allow this obviously, so the very roots will pay the price of higher racing in the not too distance future.

And Bruno and all, if this is as great as you all keeping pointing out the benefits, then surely your own benefits should be secondary to the benefit of the sport as a whole. But that is not the object obviously, as likewise is the wanting of the ET. No the benefit are just a ruse to the 'Cans' to have one! Never mind the 'DCA' no one believes that for a moment!

 

bang on my man  thats all it is black mail all these so called sports men who only have the sport at heart  they aint got a clue got their head rammed that far up their own jacksy that they cant and dont want to see the larger picture ie putting more nails into the cofin of pigeon racing

[sapper756]

 

All very true lad but it will not save pigeon racing in fact it will hasten its end sad but true!

 

 

Rubbish, no type of timing equipment will end the sport, IT,S PIGEON MEN that will bring the sport to it,s knees.  Some folk just cannot handle change, and because of that, believe , no one should change.

[me]

 

Rubbish, no type of timing equipment will end the sport, IT,S PIGEON MEN that will bring the sport to it,s knees.  Some folk just cannot handle change, and because of that, believe , no one should change.

 

Your comprehension is remarkably poor Sap lad!

 

 

[sapper756]

 

Your comprehension is remarkably poor Sap lad!

 

 

Explain :-/

[Guest]

 

Rubbish, no type of timing equipment will end the sport, IT,S PIGEON MEN that will bring the sport to it,s knees.  Some folk just cannot handle change, and because of that, believe , no one should change.

 

Think you are spot on about pigeon men being the biggest threat to the sport's future.

 

And as for change, my own experience away from the sport for 30 years backs up what you say; came back to find much the same mumps & moans, no new ideas and no new blood coming in.

[Ronnie]

Roland i just cant see where you get your figures from fifteen seconds and five seconds?You cannot add time on to any member because of his clocking device.

As stated before do people who use stall traps and the like get penalised?What about people who clock birds on the garden before they even go in the shed do they get a penalty?A good widowwood should trap straight to his box if you use open door .Now if the clock is in the loft (or on your person)how does it take 15 seconds to walk in the loft and clock it?

I think Sapper has his the nail on the head its the pigeon men that are the nail in the coffin not ets.

Ets is here and i cant see the rpra holding there hands up and saying sorry lets have a vote on it and see if the members do want it.

I can see the ruling getting changed and the willing statement being removed.

As for the attitude of well i will retire from the sport if it comes in ,I think these people are allready disgruntled with the sport and just want an exscuse to retire.

 

[Guest]

dont know how many posts i have read that its pigeon men that are the nail in the coffin well on here we are all pigeon men so yi not think its about time all this rubbish was put to the side and see if we can do something that is more beneficial to helping our sport rather than cause arguments of so called progress

[THE FIFER]

I have a similar problem, i have spent a lot of time looking at all the Ets systems traveeling plenty i selected the Bricon and purchased it, aroung £350 for all i need, i then had a joiner come to design my new ets traps for ybs 2008, i have options to race in four clubs but all have turned there noses up at it, the only way i can see of getting it in a club i compete in is to become secretary of one of them again

 

 

the officials of an organisation with the rpra have the say so if they can be used or not, also there is a lot more to the rules with the rpra than members think, ets rule, 233: "THE NECESSARY HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE FOR THE ORGANISATIONS ADMINISTRATION OF ETS MUST BE HELD UNDER LOCK AND KEY AT THE ORGANISATION OR OTHER APPROVED PREMISES THE OPERATION OF THE HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE IS ONLY PERMITTED BY AUTHERIZED MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED BY THE ORGANISATION>" so this involves two officials who must go together so there would have to be some sort of locks on the premises so one could not go by himself. rule 234: "PRIOR TO RACING ALL ETS CLOCKS MUST BE BROUGHT TO THE CLUB AND SET WITH THE ETS RADIO CLOCK

 

 

[Roland]

 

Rubbish, no type of timing equipment will end the sport, IT,S PIGEON MEN that will bring the sport to it,s knees.  Some folk just cannot handle change, and because of that, believe , no one should change.

Not true for pity's sake just how long can one bury their and spout any crap rather than just look at the realistic facts that the 'Grass roots' are sick and tired of the 'Able to distort and take advantage. Like say no wind can affect a fluffy ball of feathers,  and Well if you don't vote you ... when folks are voted in regularly to look after the interests of the sport / fed / section Nationals for ALL their' members instead of falling in with the yes brigade and extorting even more advantage.

Saw a very well know face on here just recently state that he was another that was packing in BECAUSE of the way the ET was brought in and the undermining of members wishes and the voice of the majority and the sneaky way the RPRA went about their underhanded way to cater for a few!!! And just look at all those that tried to put forward it was another REASON!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE FOR PETE'S SAKE!

Gosh are there so many fanciers presents just waiting for the ET to be voted into their' clubs etc. just so they can pack up! Did all past members wait till they got ripped off to pack up? No not all just the ones hoping for a bit of sense and reasoning and a bit of fair play! Get real they state every week, week in  and week out that the are getting peeved of, and still the old lame crutch is offered 'They was just waiting for an excuse to pack in!! Golly must one sign in blood!

 

 

to pack for the reasons they say! .... No of course not, accept  IT WAS FOR THE REASON THEY SAID! mind boggles!