East vs West route into Scotland

[Guest]

 

yes i agree fully with this,, but , as the rspb say "the west coast corridor  has the majority of the hawk population", and a few years ago, adviced to change from this route,,,,,but i can assure you all that  this situation has changed drasticly,the "east route" coldstream, kelso, ridsdale , otterburn are polluted with them , much more now, than a few years ago [im quite sure the rspb know this ,as they cant keep breeding and staying in the west , theve multiplied many times over , since that report by the rspb in 2003  >

 

Well according to the RSPB you are right Jimmy. Areas coloured green on the picture are areas where peregrine is resident.

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/p/peregrine/index.asp

[Fair Play]

Homer49 is talking to Alf on holiday but i must admit it's turned into a cracking post a lot of good information make available. It looks like Lanarkshire are going to have to fly through nesting areas of hawks and there is bound to be casualties so what do you do give up racing to accommodate the RSPB and for sure some of the birds flying in the Lanarkshire fed are of more value than a hawk in my opinion. I may have diversed some what along the way but pigeons in my estimation have been of more value to the U.K. than a bloody hawk. I still say the postings have been of the highest calibre with no real negatives. I flew the West coast a good number of years ago with Glasgow Fed. and it was hard I think Lanarkshire are looking for the best option as there were a lot of negative postings regarding the East coast route. Sorry if I have diversified again :'( :'(

[Guest]

Fair Play I think maybe that's the message that needs to be spelt out here Lanarkshire dont need to fly thro peregrine-infested areas and lose good birds.

 

When Scotsman published the article in 2005, [and the same paper is running a wildlife 'no-persecutions' campaign now] I thought it a brilliant pro-pigeon piece that would get some of the public on our side until I came to the RSPB bit 'well they've been telt no to go there but they'll no listen' and the bubble went pop. If it did that to me, reckon it did the same for the majority of the readership too.

 

So if there's a big sign up on the pond 'no skating dangerous ice' and somebody ignores it and skates on it and drowns, who is at fault? Not the landowner, not the pond, not the ice.

 

And as I've posted earlier, even our own expert says we've no right to expect any change from Government or conservation bodies if we fail to act in our own best interests first.

 

And for me, its the best interests of the pigeons that need considering, some seem to have forgotten we owe these birds a duty a care ...

 

 

[johno]

bruno these falcons are resident in many starnge places. the map shows where they , the rspb, think the perigrines are. as it plainly says at the side of the map that the map is only a guidline and not based on fact or in depth research. somehow you seem to have missed this. the point i am trying to put accross is that jimmy whites post would have us believe that the density and distribution of perigrines is equal and choice of route makes no difference. given the scientific evidence this is clearly not the case. how you can unililaterally declare right and wrong amazes me. jimmy also clearly agrees with the post that states that the old route is the best route. you say he is right. you then imply that we should be paying heid to the evidence and conclusions arrived at by research funded by scottish fanciers. does not add up. this evidence encourages pigeon fanciers to move away from theold routes into scotland.

[Guest]

Johno I didn't say that population dispersal was equal, neither did Jimmy White, at least not in my reading of his post. The map I put up shows only residency, not density.

 

I've been at pains to point out that the evidence shows greatest density of population down the west coast and the advice is we don't fly that route. That has been my stance for not flying that route and that was what I said at our Fed 2004 AGM when speaking against the motion to revert to flying west coast in 2004.  I've posted that position many times here over the intervening years.

 

From Sammy's link to the Independant article on Birds of Prey thread, I picked up the peregrine residency map and was surprised to see carpet green thro eastern scottish borders and north east england, rather than the little green 'hotspots' I expected around Keilder & Northumberland National Park. That's why I posted it and the remark 'you may be right Jimmy' was based on seeing carpet green rather than spots of green.

 

Jimmy White agreed that west coast was 'polluted' then went on to say, that levels had increased in eastern scottish borders. and were maybe just as prevelant now as in western borders given that the original survey was in 2003. This is end of 2007 so what has happened to dispersal and density levals since?

 

Jimmy White is far more active on the birds of prey front than I am, and his latest contact is a gamekeeper from Kelso area, so his information is as reliable as anyone elses. My own Fed jvp in discussing a 'strange' 2007 YB race we had, in that Fife went earlier and had excellent returns whiles ours went later and returns were 'iffy' suggested that 'the wind had changed and blown ours into the Kelso area 'and the hawks there had put them down'. So it appears known in some quarters that there is a problem with 'hawks' in that area too.

 

The other evidence is of course current experience in Scotland on west route: Solway is switching away in 2008 and Decky and Doos r us tells us their experience with Midland in 2007 on the west coast has been bad, Decky even warning Lanarkshire against going there.

 

So no matter how bad east is at present, its not as bad as the west, and in my opinion given that Solway and Midland are relatively small convoys compared to Lanarkshire's usual of around 10000 birds, convoys of that size are just like an open invitation to dinner, and attack, slaughter, scatter and injury must follow.

[Guest shadow]

does not matter where you go we have resident perigrines in lincolnshire now have been for two years ??)

[johno]

residency and density are two entirely different things. as to using rspb info there has been a great move on this site to queston the rspb opinions when it suits. the only factual studies in the uk were undertaken in wales then in scotland. i have all the information. i was part of the radio trials. i attended andrew dixons seminar at blackpool. i was one of less than twenty fanciers in attendance even though it was held in the winter gardens during the blackpool show.

[Guest]

You aren't the only one wrapped up in residency and density, one of the most quoted statements on this site and in pigeon circles is 'hawks are everywhere'. I have posted [and said] umteen times: "yes agree they are everywhere, but you'll find most of them down the west side of the country".

 

On using RSPB's residency information, this was via a link from the Independant site, one of a number of links allocated to species type and all linking to the RSPB website. As you pointed out, RSPB say it is not accurate, but it can be used as a guide.

 

And in this case, its really the RSPB that have used all the information from our research against the pigeon racing community in Scotland. As I have already remarked, the original Scotsman article was the best pro-pigeon piece I have seen the Scotsman run, but RSPB managed to kill it dead with that last killer line 'they have been told not to race on M74 corridor ..... [and do].

 

You say you have all the research information, yet you appear to be saying in earlier posts that west is best, 'fairest? Fairest for who, the pigeon?  What is your stated position on racing west coast given the research that you participated in and the information you have from it?

[Fair Play]

Maybe the members should set up their own protection of pigeons society and try to protect own own. I think I already told you about clearing out the local church tower, nobody wanted to go to church with pigeon sh** running off their Sunday best or the tower pure white or getting your hair covered with red mite or rotting the rafters in the tower. Lay people have no perception of pigeons in general they class all the same not that the fancier treats his pigeons all year takes them to the vet when sick(well the champs)and pay a fortune to feed and house them, all most were concerned with was that I done nothing untoward to these poor street pigeons no ill (aye right!)

[johno]

bruno all i am pointing out is the only scietific data available was paid for by the pigeon fancier. you appear to be determined to have a bang at anything i post. at no point have i ever stated that west is best and fairest. the birds that went to gretna did so after mr lynch phoned myself to ask my opinion on the suggestion. i suggested they were mad to try this but went on to say that i had my opinion but it was up to the transport provider and the fanciers involved. would you please direct me to where i posted this earlier please? i was banned for 10 years by the shu for holding and standing against the westerly route.

[johno]

bruno what is your insecurity? why do you obsess with having a say and making people cringe at your habitual compulsion to show how well versed you are? why do i make you feel so inadequate? why do you feel the need to attempt to ridicule anything i post? you appear to have a serious problem with accepting peoples right to posting facts.

[Guest]

bruno all i am pointing out is the only scietific data available was paid for by the pigeon fancier. you appear to be determined to have a bang at anything i post. at no point have i ever stated that west is best and fairest. the birds that went to gretna did so after mr lynch phoned myself to ask my opinion on the suggestion. i suggested they were mad to try this but went on to say that i had my opinion but it was up to the transport provider and the fanciers involved. would you please direct me to where i posted this earlier please? i was banned for 10 years by the shu for holding and standing against the westerly route.

 

Well first of all I am sorry to hear you had such a severe sanction taken against you for standing firm on a point of principle.

 

I have read and re-read the thread, and the current theme starts with Square Peg's post 10 and he says west is best and fairest. Jimmy White post 10 agrees but introduces the main reason for not flying west - raptors. But he also goes on to say he thinks eastern border country is polluted with them too;

 

You basically attack these posts rubbishing square peg in [12] using a prevailing wind east section vs west section argument; and attempting to undermine JW in [13] by questioning basically everything he said about raptors in that post.

 

In my post 14 I simply agreed with what you said on the raptor research, and posted the Scotsman article.

 

You continued in a seperate discussion on east section vs west section, and from  this I mistook your argument to be 'west was best'. As I said, I re-read this thread and seperate discussion in it several times before I realised that you were actually advocating more easterly racepoints [for reasons nothing to do with raptors] and I acknowledge my error and apologise for it.

 

 

[Guest]

bruno what is your insecurity? why do you obsess with having a say and making people cringe at your habitual compulsion to show how well versed you are? why do i make you feel so inadequate? why do you feel the need to attempt to ridicule anything i post? you appear to have a serious problem with accepting peoples right to posting facts.

 

I honestly do not know why you have taken this stance. I haven't ridiculed you at any point here and on the main points I have agreed with you or furnished further info on something you've specifically asked..

 

On your last sentence : wasn't it you who showed that particular characteristic in your posts 12 & 13 with square peg and jimmy white, and now here with me? Pots & kettles perhaps???

[Fair Play]

Have all the Scots been watching Dr Lynch puting forward the points of view of members with regards to the hawk problem in Scotland and surprise,surprise a visit to his loft by Minister for the environment looked encouraging but don't hold too much hope maybe i am being too pessimistic. The RSPB has it's hand out every year looking for funds When as we as a body give away thousands  every year to various charities and good causes.

[Guest]

Have all the Scots been watching Dr Lynch puting forward the points of view of members with regards to the hawk problem in Scotland and surprise,surprise a visit to his loft by Minister for the environment looked encouraging but don't hold too much hope maybe i am being too pessimistic. The RSPB has it's hand out every year looking for funds When as we as a body give away thousands  every year to various charities and good causes.

 

Thanks for that info, I for one didn't know about it. Where did you pick it up please?  

[Guest]

Not from the raptor point, but perhaps pertinent to the sectional positional advantage point raised by Johno, I've just learned the old 'magic' racepoints Rennes and Nantes are back on SNFC proposed race program for 2008.

[Fair Play]

BBC Scotland "The Politics Show"  at 12 today may well be a rerun on the website showed some graphic shots of pigeons that had been hawked.

[jimmy white]

post 11 jimmy it was not the rspb who advised staying away from the old route it was the experts paid by the shu. Dr Andrew Dixon was the authoritative expert employed by the shu. the shu then funded research where radios were attached to the back of birds and tracked them after liberation. 90 birds were used in trials. 5 from kelso and 1 from gretna. flyers with pigeons involved were robert lafferty raploch geddes and hillis chryston an p.lynch larbert. these lofts each used 30 of their own birds. half the birds had radios attached half did not. the kelso trials had good returns every week. in excess of 90 per cent. the gretna trial was a disaster. one pigeon on the day and less than 40 per cent all in. there is nothing to support the contet of your post jimmy. the reality is often hard to accept. jimmy where are the facts that support your post? where are the records and logs that you used to put your post togther.

 

hi johno,, if you read the very first post on the [sticky ,,birds of prey post youll see that the rspb advised the fanciers to change from the west coast as this was the worst corridor for" perigrines", the point im trying to make is,, they are all over now  

[Guest]

BBC Scotland "The Politics Show"  at 12 today may well be a rerun on the website showed some graphic shots of pigeons that had been hawked.

 

Thanks for that. Video is on BBC Scotland website but seems to break down in last 10 minutes of show, containing, you've guessed,    the bit I wanted to see.  Tried it 3 times  >

[Chris Little]

I've just learned the old 'magic' racepoints Rennes and Nantes are back on SNFC proposed race program for 2008.

 

 

:o :o :o :o :o ;D

 

[Guest]

Gentlemen for what it's worth, I lived on the Pennines east side at Meltham , Huddersfield, I was in Huddersfield from 89 to 99 and then Barnsley from 99 to dec 2004, the peregrine threat on the east side was negligible, the sparrow hawk was the threat and I never had a bird back hawked from a race, in Devon it's the opposite rare to have a race without a bird sufering from a hawk attack! When I left  South Wales in the area I lived there were then 3 pairs within a 6 mile radius (old quarries). At Blaenrhondda in the early 80 the RSPB resettled a pair and they wiped out YB racing for that club the season they did if I remember.

But I have experienced nothing like it since I moved down to Devon they are everywhere between Tiverton and Barnstaple, down on the coast and I bet Cornwall is the same if not worse. My advise for waht it's worth would be to stick down the east side, cause the west is pretty bad, as I would have thought it is in Scotland. (I take my hats off to the lads up there in Aberdeen, it must be really tough I would imagine as well)

[Guest]

One other point Patrick Bros lived in Shropshire, moved there from Newbury I think. They left Shropshire because of the peregrine problems there I believe.

[ch pied]

good luck lad's & lasse's , dont think it matter's which route you go . that map should be green all over ,percy is every ware in  increasing number's. over here we haden't much of percy prob untill the RSPB started a relase programe in the early ,80s . now the place is comming down with them, they picked their release point's well. making sure there was a well stocked larder near by