Its made it worse.

[ribble]

Sorry to read of your problems Vic, hope your vet can get to the bottom of it.

I'm sure you will be clocking from Niort in the not to distant future

[Guest Vic]

C'mon you guys, out of over SIX HUNDRED  VIEWERS. There surely should be more

lifebelts about. A Titanic struggle indeed!   

[Guest]

Vic, i'm sincerely sorry mate, but its got me stumped! I'll try to get some info off the lads tomorrow see if they have any ideas! Hope you get it sorted mate!  

[Guest]

makes you wonder when you see things like this are the continual use of vaccines etc year after year are we creating (A) mutating strains of virus ( after a couple of generations being given vaccines etc  are we killing the natural immunity in our birds and creating weaklings just a thought ps this is not aimed at anybody inparticular and Vic i hope you read this as is meant and not that im saying your birds are weak or overtreated but i feel maybe we the pigeon fanciers could be our own worst enemy

[Merlin]

Vic

     I am genuinely sorry for your predicament,I could not offer any suggestions,never having encountered same,but if you type( Herpes Virus in Racing Pigeons) on your search engine,there are many pages on same to be found,too many to relay,this might give you some answers,and comfort.

[Guest Vic]

makes you wonder when you see things like this are the continual use of vaccines etc year after year are we creating (A) mutating strains of virus ( after a couple of generations being given vaccines etc  are we killing the natural immunity in our birds and creating weaklings just a thought ps this is not aimed at anybody inparticular and Vic i hope you read this as is meant and not that im saying your birds are weak or overtreated but i feel maybe we the pigeon fanciers could be our own worst enemy

 

Tony, My initial post on the topic, underlines what you are saying. Years ago, we had simple ailments, one eyed cold, canker, going light, sour crop, etc. etc. But since the introduction of the needle, pigeon racing is  no longer the pleasure it was. The only needle that was used in pigeon racing, at that time, was to determine ones loft position. Too many TAKERS, these days!  They only GIVE the game a bad image. Hence our plight! :(    

[Guest slugmonkey]

I have never vaccinated at any time

in one of those articles posted earlier there was mention of " a bag of micro-organisims " I belive most lofts are too clean and most birds arent exposed to enough " BAD " bugs at an early enough age and this is the cause of a LOT of problems later on

I havent treated my breeders as a flock for anything in almost 4 years now I do give cider vinegar every couple of weeks and occasionaly give a probiotic during off season

I belive one of the WORST things you can do is give a course of antibiotics right before breeding season starts, this kills any immunity the breeder may have developed, most antibiotics are bad for babies they hinder development and result in weakened and stressed young which cannot develop into healthy adults

Another area where I feel a lot of guys fail is in the feed trough, yes a bird will survive on barley will he be better for it NO!!! most people try to cut costs during the off season by feeding lesser food and I also belive this shows in the young, a malnourished adult = a malnourished baby and that is a fact that will always hold true a pigeon is not like a bank account you cannot run him short all year and then start feeding him well right before breeding season and expect a good outcome!! eggs are formed from the pigeon, sperm is formed from the pigeon, if either is not 100% then the baby will not be 100% if your eggs are thin shelled and weak because the bird is not getting enough calcium then how can this same bird have strong bones and good nerve function ( both take calcium ) once the egg is formed there is NOTHING added to it eggs are formed long before the egg is laid !!! if you are feeding 1 grain and it is contaminated with mold spore then 100% of your feed is contaminated if you are feeding 2 grains and 1 is contaminated then you are now only 50% comtaminated, if 4 than 25% ect. now lets look at nutritional content if your food is 1 grain and it is lacking in calcium the 100% of your feed is calcium deficent, if 2 grains and 1 is lacking then you are now 50%, if 4 then 25% ect

I dont think they are going to find any 1 thing I think it is a combination of factors BUT I think you are at a crossroad here the birds you have left are healthy I presume so start there what is diffrent about them ? I would try several things while waiting for the vet to come back

1. WHOLE RAW MILK 1 day then wait 2 days then do it again HAS TO BE WHOLE RAW UNPASTEURIZED

2. DOUBLE DOSE PROBIOTIC every 3rd day

3. cider vinegar and garlic the rest of the time

4. make sure there is plenty of grit

5. check all grains for mold and contaminates and make sure they have PLENTY OF A VARIETY of grain

6. give them some ORGANIC COLD PRESSED COCONUT OIL on the food every couple of days for a while ( helps with malaria and some other microbes )

 

Do you use bleach?

if so I would get rid of it also

I don't know if any of this will help tell us what you are feeding and other things you do

[Guest Vic]

I have never vaccinated at any time

in one of those articles posted earlier there was mention of " a bag of micro-organisims " I belive most lofts are too clean and most birds arent exposed to enough " BAD " bugs at an early enough age and this is the cause of a LOT of problems later on

I havent treated my breeders as a flock for anything in almost 4 years now I do give cider vinegar every couple of weeks and occasionaly give a probiotic during off season

I belive one of the WORST things you can do is give a course of antibiotics right before breeding season starts, this kills any immunity the breeder may have developed, most antibiotics are bad for babies they hinder development and result in weakened and stressed young which cannot develop into healthy adults

Another area where I feel a lot of guys fail is in the feed trough, yes a bird will survive on barley will he be better for it NO!!! most people try to cut costs during the off season by feeding lesser food and I also belive this shows in the young, a malnourished adult = a malnourished baby and that is a fact that will always hold true a pigeon is not like a bank account you cannot run him short all year and then start feeding him well right before breeding season and expect a good outcome!! eggs are formed from the pigeon, sperm is formed from the pigeon, if either is not 100% then the baby will not be 100% if your eggs are thin shelled and weak because the bird is not getting enough calcium then how can this same bird have strong bones and good nerve function ( both take calcium ) once the egg is formed there is NOTHING added to it eggs are formed long before the egg is laid !!! if you are feeding 1 grain and it is contaminated with mold spore then 100% of your feed is contaminated if you are feeding 2 grains and 1 is contaminated then you are now only 50% comtaminated, if 4 than 25% ect. now lets look at nutritional content if your food is 1 grain and it is lacking in calcium the 100% of your feed is calcium deficent, if 2 grains and 1 is lacking then you are now 50%, if 4 then 25% ect

I dont think they are going to find any 1 thing I think it is a combination of factors BUT I think you are at a crossroad here the birds you have left are healthy I presume so start there what is diffrent about them ? I would try several things while waiting for the vet to come back

1. WHOLE RAW MILK 1 day then wait 2 days then do it again HAS TO BE WHOLE RAW UNPASTEURIZED

2. DOUBLE DOSE PROBIOTIC every 3rd day

3. cider vinegar and garlic the rest of the time

4. make sure there is plenty of grit

5. check all grains for mold and contaminates and make sure they have PLENTY OF A VARIETY of grain

6. give them some ORGANIC COLD PRESSED COCONUT OIL on the food every couple of days for a while ( helps with malaria and some other microbes )

 

Do you use bleach?

if so I would get rid of it also

I don't know if any of this will help tell us what you are feeding and other things you do

 

Slugmonkey, Thanks for your comments, No! I don't use bleach, and feed my birds on good corn. Breed and Wean mixed with 50% Diat feed, with added hemp,sunflower,and Hormoform occasionally. Peanuts are used when I feel the time is right, although this may be a weakness in my feeding system.  Most of my birds look the the part, many holding tight quivering tails. I clean out daily, and when the ybs are in the nest from seven days old onwards, they get two lettuce daily. I also pop a CLO capsule down their throats from ten days old untill they are weaned. The OB are allowed two weekly baths, if the weather is right. I am also a firm believer in the probiotic vita combi. from the USA. Cheers, Vic.

 

[Guest TAMMY_1]

I have never vaccinated at any time

in one of those articles posted earlier there was mention of " a bag of micro-organisims " I belive most lofts are too clean and most birds arent exposed to enough " BAD " bugs at an early enough age and this is the cause of a LOT of problems later on

I havent treated my breeders as a flock for anything in almost 4 years now I do give cider vinegar every couple of weeks and occasionaly give a probiotic during off season

I belive one of the WORST things you can do is give a course of antibiotics right before breeding season starts, this kills any immunity the breeder may have developed, most antibiotics are bad for babies they hinder development and result in weakened and stressed young which cannot develop into healthy adults

Another area where I feel a lot of guys fail is in the feed trough, yes a bird will survive on barley will he be better for it NO!!! most people try to cut costs during the off season by feeding lesser food and I also belive this shows in the young, a malnourished adult = a malnourished baby and that is a fact that will always hold true a pigeon is not like a bank account you cannot run him short all year and then start feeding him well right before breeding season and expect a good outcome!! eggs are formed from the pigeon, sperm is formed from the pigeon, if either is not 100% then the baby will not be 100% if your eggs are thin shelled and weak because the bird is not getting enough calcium then how can this same bird have strong bones and good nerve function ( both take calcium ) once the egg is formed there is NOTHING added to it eggs are formed long before the egg is laid !!! if you are feeding 1 grain and it is contaminated with mold spore then 100% of your feed is contaminated if you are feeding 2 grains and 1 is contaminated then you are now only 50% comtaminated, if 4 than 25% ect. now lets look at nutritional content if your food is 1 grain and it is lacking in calcium the 100% of your feed is calcium deficent, if 2 grains and 1 is lacking then you are now 50%, if 4 then 25% ect

I dont think they are going to find any 1 thing I think it is a combination of factors BUT I think you are at a crossroad here the birds you have left are healthy I presume so start there what is diffrent about them ? I would try several things while waiting for the vet to come back

1. WHOLE RAW MILK 1 day then wait 2 days then do it again HAS TO BE WHOLE RAW UNPASTEURIZED

2. DOUBLE DOSE PROBIOTIC every 3rd day

3. cider vinegar and garlic the rest of the time

4. make sure there is plenty of grit

5. check all grains for mold and contaminates and make sure they have PLENTY OF A VARIETY of grain

6. give them some ORGANIC COLD PRESSED COCONUT OIL on the food every couple of days for a while ( helps with malaria and some other microbes )

 

Do you use bleach?

if so I would get rid of it also

I don't know if any of this will help tell us what you are feeding and other things you do

 

Some great points in here, but totally disagree with you not vaccinating your birds, and disagree to a point about you not treating them for anything either, your choice though, but is giving pro-biotics not  a sort of treatment ?, this is one thing that does annoy me, though it is not  solely in your post, people continually say they never give their birds anything whatsoever then in the next breath they say they give garlic, cider vinegar, pro biotics and then the odd this and the odd that, a total contradiction to them saying they never give anything.  :-/

[Guest TAMMY_1]

 

I am also a firm believer in the probiotic vita combi. from the USA. Cheers, Vic.

 

Have to agrre with you again Vic on this one, have been using it for a while now, get it sent up from down south.

[rembrant2coo]

 

Have to agrre with you again Vic on this one, have been using it for a while now, get it sent up from down south.

 

is that whats been giving you the wind you better check to see if everything is o.k.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

 

is that whats been giving you the wind you better check to see if everything is o.k.

 

Everything is spot on with me  

[Guest slugmonkey]

Vic,mice maybe ? it sounds like you feed well and am glad to hear you don't have bleach in the drinkers !

TAMMY by not give anything I meant medication or antibiotic or medically reckgonized treatment - I know these treatments don't work I have had vets tell me so

Interesting point about vaccine I have friend who has birds in quarrantine, they had been vaccinated and are now testing positive for pmv because of vaccine and may have to be destroyed

P.S. we lost some birds once due to bad pellets ( laying ) most dont think they go bad but they do

[pjc]

the birds in quarantine, were they vacinated before import? If so they may have been injected with live vacine so would test positive!

[Tony C]

Could the spraying of crops have something to do with the apparent weakening of pigeons immune systems?

 

Is it just a coincidence that all these new viruses pigeons contract attack their nervous systems?

 

Farmers are most at risk from contracting Parkinson’s disease!

[Guest IB]

Sorry to hear of your problem Vic. I am at a loss to understand where you have got this from - I've no experience of anything like it, so can offer little practical advice.

 

I do have a paper on it from my Library, you'll know most of it, but hope it helps:

 

Understanding Herpes Virus in Pigeons

 

Dave Rupiper DVM

Kenneth T. Briggs DVM, PhD

 

http://www.epah.net/birds/Herpesvirus.html

 

 

Herpes virus, also known as Infectious Catarrh, is a contagious, persistent virus causing respiratory and neurologic disease in pigeons. In its breadth of clinical signs, occasional virulence and persistence in carrier birds, Herpes infections of pigeons somewhat resembles diseases caused by similar Herpes species in other domestic animals. (Fortunately, Herpes infections are very specific to their natural hosts -- we can't infect our birds with our varieties, nor can we contract the pigeon forms!) Birds having Herpes infections are often concurrently infected with Mycoplasma, Chlamydia (Psittacosis/Ornithosis) and bacteria.1 As a result, signs of disease may not always be straightforward. Herpes virus was first identified in pigeons in the U.S. in 1945 and in other countries during the next 40 years.2 Multiple types of Herpes virus affect other species such as raptors, waterfowl, psittacines and poultry.2,3

 

Herpes virus in pigeons may be of two or three different forms. The most common form, Pigeon Herpes Virus (PHV), may cause mild respiratory and liver diseases. Two strains of PHV have been isolated, mild and severe PHV.4

 

The second form, Pigeon Herpes Encephalomyelitis Virus (PHEV), may cause paralysis, torticollis (twisted necks and rolling) and other neurologic signs without causing respiratory signs, making it difficult to distinguish between PHEV and Paramyxovirus. Fortunately, PHEV has not been reported to be a significant problem in the U.S. but may be observed in birds imported from the Middle East.

 

The third reported form of PHV causes inflammation of the cloaca and vent but the distinctiveness of this form has not been confirmed.2

 

Etiology (Cause) and Transmission: Herpes virus belongs to a group of DNA viruses known as the Herpeviridae which includes the viruses which cause Marek's Disease of poultry, Duck Plague, psittacine Pacheco's disease, and Infectious Laryngotracheitis of chickens.5 PHV is usually passed from affected adults to squabs during feeding. It can be transmitted by nasal discharge as well as in saliva, feces and urine. In most flocks, PHV is already present but birds only manifest signs if the strain is severe, as with PHEV, or the birds are stressed by management problems and concurrent diseases.

 

Signs: PHV causes upper respiratory signs. These include reddening of the eye, cere and lids, nasal discharges, graying and filming of the mouth and oral cavity, and occasionally open-mouthed breathing. These respiratory signs and discharges are referred to as "catarrh." Other symptoms include fluffed posture, depression, diarrhea, weakness during flight and anorexia.

 

PHEV causes neurological signs such as paresis ( muscle weakness), paralysis, circling, seizures and twisted necks. PHEV is also much more severe than PHV and may result in rapid and high mortality within a loft.

 

Diagnosis: The classic diphtheritic (filmy slime in the mouth) upper respiratory signs are fairly diagnostic for PHV but may be confused with the "Ornithose Complex" involving concurrent infections of Mycoplasma and Chlamydia. Diagnosis is most easily achieved via necropsy (autopsy) of an affected bird. Special staining of the spleen and liver allows a pathologist to identify special inclusions within the cells which are called "intranuclear inclusion bodies" or "INI bodies." The liver and spleen often have tissues damaged with PHV.

 

Treatment: There is no cure for the disease and only through improved management can we hope to achieve control.6 Treatment with a drug called acyclovir may help control severe signs but the disease often returns if the medication is discontinued. It is best to allow Herpes virus to run its course and let the birds develop a natural immunity. Passive immunity (antibodies are transferred from parents to squabs in "crop milk") protects the young until weaned. Isolation of obviously affected birds is recommended since they are often infected with other contagious diseases as well.

 

Prevention: Killed and live virus vaccines have been formulated, but these only prevent shedding and dissemination of the virus from affected birds. Vaccines do not prevent pigeons from being carriers of Herpes virus.2,5 Natural infection of mild strains with subsequent immunity is still the best method to protect a flock from virulent strains of PHV.2

 

Like so many diseases of our birds, prevention and treatment often depend on cleanliness, good husbandry, good nutrition and preventing overcrowding. The days of keeping six inches of dry litter on the loft floor to prevent disease are gone, just as using NFZ to control canker and Paratyphoid is obsolete. Intense competition at shows, performance flying of young birds and increased production of squabs are placing more demands on the fancier in order to still be competitive. The key to success is educating ourselves about the disease process and by progressive management of our lofts.

 

 

References

1. Schrag L: Healthy Pigeons, 6th English Revised Ed, Hengersberg, W Germany, Schober Verlags-GmbH, 1989, pp 48-53.

2. Tudor DC: Pigeon Health and Disease, Ames, IA, IA St Univ Press, 1991, pp 34-38.

3. Fraser CM (Ed): Part VI, Diseases of Poultry. in Merck Veterinary Manual 6th Ed, Rahway, NJ, Merck & Co., Inc., 1986, p 1272.

4. Kaleta EF: A Selection of Disease Syndromes in Pigeons. Proc 1st Conf European Comm AAV, 1991, pp 77-81.

5. Dorrestein GM: Viral Infections in Racing Pigeons. Proc AAV, 1991, pp 244- 257.

6. Marshall R: Management of Pigeon Diseases. Proc AAV, 1990, pp 122-135.

 

 

 

[Guest Vic]

Thanks IB, and all those that have been in touch with me, through the PM system. You are a credit to the sport. Pigeon Basics can only prosper with guys like you. Good luck to you all. Most Sincerely, Vic.  

[pjc]

any updates from he vet Vic?

[Guest Vic]

Sorry I'm a bit late with the update, but the eldest lad was "tydying up" my pc this afternoon, and I had to search for my log in details, which I have just found, so here goes.  After a talk with the vet, he related the following. Definitely no signs of Salmonella.He says that it is almost certainly Circovirus, one of the many viruses, that are doing the rounds at the moment. He admits, that to determine each virus would cost too much money, which he says is not there.He says, if I cull any birds that I suspect carry the virus, and any infected ybs,and parents, my stock should become immune to the situation. So it looks like I have some culling in front of me. But might I say, that I get the impression that they, the vets, are still confused

with the arrival of so many viruses in so short a time.  He also mentioned that the herb oregano or products made from the herb, should be a regular part in our birds diet.                             So anything that looks out of place, in my loft, will be put down and that's about it. May I thank all the guys that have assisted me, in one way or another. Dr Larry Lucas! It seems you should have been a doctor of medicine as well. Cheers. Vic.   

[Lennut Tar]

Sorry I'm a bit late with the update, but the eldest lad was "tydying up" my pc this afternoon, and I had to search for my log in details, which I have just found, so here goes.  After a talk with the vet, he related the following. Definitely no signs of Salmonella.He says that it is almost certainly Circovirus, one of the many viruses, that are doing the rounds at the moment. He admits, that to determine each virus would cost too much money, which he says is not there.He says, if I cull any birds that I suspect carry the virus, and any infected ybs,and parents, my stock should become immune to the situation. So it looks like I have some culling in front of me. But might I say, that I get the impression that they, the vets, are still confused

with the arrival of so many viruses in so short a time.  He also mentioned that the herb oregano or products made from the herb, should be a regular part in our birds diet.                             So anything that looks out of place, in my loft, will be put down and that's about it. May I thank all the guys that have assisted me, in one way or another. Dr Larry Lucas! It seems you should have been a doctor of medicine as well. Cheers. Vic.   

 

Thank's Vic !!!!!!, for the update ;) Many of us, have been concerned, Re your problem's etc. Let's just hope your now on the way, to fix it all up etc   :) I'm off to look up my herb list   ;) (Which is huge) I might learn something again.

Enjoy.

 

 

[ALF]

IT'S STILL WORKING VIC

[Guest Vic]

IT'S STILL WORKING VIC

 

Yes Alf, Thanks! ;D  I can understand replies drying up, because enough has been said already. But I cannot believe that viewings could cease so drastically.   

[ALF]

Well Vic when you posted earlier you said that veiwings had remained around the 1260 mark and now they are up at approx 1350 then people are looking but just not saying nowt

[Guest Vic]

Yes Alf, nearly a hundred in less than a hour, Yet hardly any in the previous 20 hours. I just dont get it. ;D Cheers.

[Guest chrisss]

for what its worth good luck