electrolytes

[Roland]

Just why do so many use them :-/

Many Vets say Stay away from :o

What do folks think are the benefits of giving electrilite  :-/

 

 

Water is the main component of blood and cells. It fills most of the spaces around cells. To function normally, the body must keep the amount of water in these areas in balance and relatively constant. Too little water (dehydration) or too much water (overhydration) in the body can cause problems.

 

The water in the body contains dissolved minerals called electrolytes. They include sodium, potassium, and calcium. The body must also keep levels of electrolytes in balance and relatively constant. The balance of electrolytes is closely tied to the balance of water in the body: If one changes, the other usually also changes.

 

To maintain water and electrolyte balance, the body must replace water and electrolytes that are lost as the body performs its necessary functions. The body loses water and electrolytes primarily in urine, produced by the kidneys. Water and electrolytes are also lost in sweat, feces, and air that is breathed out. The body obtains water and electrolytes primarily from beverages and foods consumed. A healthy body can adjust the amount of water and electrolytes lost and consumed. Thirst, hunger, and the kidneys help with these adjustments. For example, a person who feels thirsty usually drinks more fluids. When a person becomes dehydrated, the brain releases a hormone called antidiuretic hormone. This hormone signals the kidneys to retain more water by making and excreting less urine.

 

As the body ages, it changes in ways that make older people more likely to have problems with water and electrolyte balance. The older body contains less water. Water accounts for 60% of body weight in healthy young people but for only 45% in healthy older people. In older people, the kidneys are less able to regulate the excretion of water and to concentrate urine as needed. Therefore, more water may be lost in urine. Also, older people often do not drink enough water, especially on hot days, partly because they tend to be less thirsty. If older people have problems with walking, they may not be able to get themselves enough water to drink. Older people who have urinary incontinence may drink less because they are worried about getting to a bathroom in time.

 

Many disorders, especially those that cause fever, vomiting, or diarrhea, can result in problems with water and electrolyte balance. These disorders may be short-lived (for example, pneumonia) or chronic (for example, kidney failure). Many drugs, especially diuretics, can also cause problems.

 

http://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/82/

 

So just what, and how does one Know exactly which part is hampered .... if any :-/

 

http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_ha/sec3/ch18/ch18d.html

[OLDYELLOW]

i give my birds electrolytes to replace depleated sugars and salt in the birds tissues in order to prevent them flooding themselves by drinking too much water , by stabalising these salt / sugars , the birds bodys return to normal quicker IMO

[hotrod]

i give my birds electrolytes to replace depleated sugars and salt in the birds tissues in order to prevent them flooding themselves by drinking too much water , by stabalising these salt / sugars , the birds bodys return to normal quicker IMO

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON .

 

[jimmy white]

i wouldnt  hesitate in giving electro-lytes [or re-heydration salts] after any race.

i have found by doing this, they do seem to recover quicker    [but as all things with pigeons,,in moderation ]

[Guest]

4 tea spoons of sea salt, 8 tea spoons of sugar,mixed in 8 Lts of water never used any thing else.

[pjc]

4 tea spoons of sea salt, 8 tea spoons of sugar,mixed in 8 Lts of water never used any thing else.

 

level or heaped spoons and do you disolve in warm/hot water then dilute to 8lts?

 

 

[Guest IB]

The article is about human (mammalian) systems which function completely differently from birds:

 

Mammals have mammalian kidneys. They have sweat glands in their skin and they lose water and salt through them during strenuous exercise. Yes, electrolytes will balance out these losses. Competitive Marathon Running is a good example, with stations along the way giving out bottles of water containing electrolytes to competitors.

 

Birds have part reptilian, part mammalian kidneys and don't have sweat glands in their skin. During flight body temperature rises by 3C which causes water loss. But the electrolytes are held by the body and circulated in the blood to help cool the body. So they lose  water and retain electolytes creating an imbalance. It's the other way around with birds, they need water, not electrolytes and giving them worsens that imbalance.

 

I'm sure there's a Gordon Chalmers round-robin on this Site in which he'd asked vets around the world on the use of electrolytes in pigeons, and each gave their opinion on their use.  

[Guest]

 

level or heaped spoons and do you disolve in warm/hot water then dilute to 8lts?

 

:)level,i leave over night and give it a good shake in morning,and i only use water that has been boiled or mineral water

 

 

[Guest IB]

First posted in 2006, an Article by Gordon Chlamers:-

 

Flying racing pigeons in the heat.

With regard to the strange races of section 7 in Holland, where pigeons came home totally dehydrated and lost 30% of their bodyweight, I asked a number of our authors to comment. How they look upon it you can read below.

 

1. Dr. Colin Walker:

 

There is no single disease that comes to mind that would cause the symptoms, however, any disease can make the races particularly taxing for the birds and prolong recovery. I would imagine however, that you have already had all of the routine checks done to ensure that your birds are healthy. The two most common diseases that lead to excessive thirst during racing are wet canker and respiratory infection causing inflamed air sacs.

 

Wet canker: the trichomonad organisms produce a toxin that makes the birds thirsty. When the air sacs become inflamed they lose their moisture conserving ability and the birds lose excessive moisture in the exhaled air. When correcting the ensuing dehydration they often over-compensate and drink excessively. As you say however, there may be concern that the conveyers are not watering and feeding the birds adequately. Experiments have shown that pigeons deprived of water for 24 hours at 25C become 5% dehydrated. Given the pigeon�s high body temperature (41.7C) and the number put in race baskets, the temperature within the basket can get much higher, even on cold days particularly if the race basket is poorly ventilated. Even birds that are only slightly dehydrated can be expected to orientate poorly and take longer to recover.

 

2. Bob Rowland: Scientific answer about flying in the heat:

 

Total heat load = environmental temperature + body temperature + UV thermal Load. If you change any one of these variables you change the bird�s total metabolic rate which corresponds to a high energy demand and thereby higher consumption of minerals, fat, and other vitamins.

 

 

3. Dr. Wim Peters � responding to Bob Rowland�s views:

 

A controversial thing is the use of corn for long distance races. A farmer (not a pigeon guy) once told me corn in hot weather should be like poison for pigeons. The salt in corn would create tremendous thirst in hot weather. I would rather load up with different carbohydrates, e.g. Rice, or Rice soaked in water. Peanuts are another questionable fad. I believe they are good in cool weather and bad in hot weather, at least close to race day, not sure why or scientifically, but that has been my experience.

 

Electrolytes

Pigeons do not sweat - so where is the loss of the electrolytes, that have to be replaced, supposed to come from? It is stated that sodium and other salts are excreted when bound to lactic acid and that the lactic acid forms when the pigeons do anaerobic exercise (exercise in the absence of oxygen). It is my contention that racing pigeons have no anaerobic exercise and therefore conserve their salts.

 

Unless a pigeon is losing electrolytes in some form, maybe with enteritis or when the kidneys have been damaged by PMV, there is NO need to use them or when birds vomit, have diarrhea and so on. In these cases their use is absolutely essential , but not for healthy pigeons.

 

 

4. John Sampson.

 

I find Dr. Wim Peters views very interesting. Why do we give electrolytes before a race? Is it to make the birds thirsty? Why do we give them after a race? I know people that give Pedialyte before long races that do very well and others who do it and don't do well. I have tried it and did not do well that day, but maybe it had nothing to do with Pedialyte?

 

I think birds kept closer to nature in the hot weather will do better assuming they have all the attributes of a good racing pigeon. When we have a long, hard, hot race why is it some old timers who don't know an electrolyte from a vitamin, don't train, don't medicate very much, etc, but yet they always seem to get good birds. We are also told vitamins and some grains can cause thirst as well, so perhaps the street pigeons can handle the heat better than our thoroughbreds? I never saw one panting at the Mall. I believe in medication and proper diet, but I also think we are too good to our pigeons sometimes and consequently do them more harm than good.

Some of my observations on temperature, humidity, dew point, etc. in relation to pigeons. Yesterday in different parts of the country I got the following information.

 

84 degrees, 72% dew point, 66% humidity (rain)

89 degrees, 55% dew point, 100% humidity (no rain)

 

How is it we can have 100% humidity but yet a low dew point and vice versa? The only thing I know for sure is when the temperature and dew point are the same we have fog, yet temperature and humidity have no relation to fog. Humid air is thicker, heavier, harder to breathe, ask anyone with lung problems. Not sure about high dew point air being thicker or heavier but I would think it would be similar. I'm not sure about any relationship with humid air and wing flapping, but I know with my lung condition, it's harder to breathe and move around. Why is it even on a "cool day" with "high dew" point pigeons get overheated?

 

Personally I think dew point is the killer, not temperature or humidity, another killer is "lack of cloud cover" on a day with bright sunshine. What causes cramp in the legs when flying in hot weather or hard day, is it from holding the legs down in the air to cool off? Not sure if that's a fact or an old wives tail, but I heard if a pigeon can cool his feet down it helps cool his whole body?

 

Our driver is instructed to have water before the birds 1 hour before release. I have talked with him many times about this and he said the minute they see him the only thing on their mind is the doors opening and water is the last thing on their mind. Of course on a race with 2 day shipping they will drink. I'm not sure if water is that important before a short race in hot weather. I agree it might be good for them, but how do you get them to take a drink? Many clubs do not feed the birds on a 2 day race, they don't think it's good and makes the birds thirsty.

 

5. Wim Peters.

 

I'm against the use of electrolytes in pigeons (p 216). Colin Walker, in his latest book (p 144) has a different opinion. His argument is that the lactic acid, which is produced at the time of anaerobic exercise, bonds with sodium and other salts to facilitate excretion and is thus lost. This causes loss of electrolytes and a prolonged recuperation period. To prevent this state he recommends electrolyte 'replacement'. Now if electrolytes were lost I would agree with the rationale but does the bird do any anaerobic exercise when flying normally? Some people here, particularly those in the more humid areas, now wish to use them also before a race. (It's fairly widely believed that the birds will be properly hydrated!). I don't like it but maybe I'm missing something? I see that Colin W also advises half-strength electrolytes prior to basketing.

 

 

6. Gordon Chalmers reply to Wim Peters

 

I seldom use electrolytes on my own birds. My general feeling has been not to use them at all (exception - possibly in cases of severe fluid loss as in diarrhea). I just don't see the point of using them before a race, since, if birds are managed correctly and have access to a wide-ranging mineral mix at all times, their electrolytes should be at normal levels. Adding electrolytes might just induce unnecessary thirst. I have thought that at times, birds could use electrolytes on their return from a race, but even then I'm reluctant to use them. I much prefer fresh water with no additives when they arrive, but later in the day, I'll add some glucose or fructose. I really don't like the idea of half-strength electrolytes as advocated by Colin - my view is that it's better to avoid them entirely ahead of shipping, and let the birds balance their own systems without electrolytes after they return.

 

During a race any significant alteration to the regular rate of the wing beat at cruising speed (on average, a normal rate of 5.4 beats per second) such as explosive or dodging bursts of speed, pulling hard against the wind, braking to land, etc. can induce anaerobic glycolysis. That results in the production of some level of lactic acid.

 

 

7. Dr. Wim Peters.

 

Racing your pigeons when the temps exceed 30 degrees C becomes problematical. (I cannot agree with Bob R who states that 20 to 35 degrees is 'the ideal range'. I'm sure he didn�t mean it like this.)

 

Pigeons flying in hot conditions can only lower their body temperature by increasing the evaporation rate from the mouth, throat and lungs. Doing so in the absence of drinking water increases the possibility (danger) of dehydration. The alternative is to reduce or stop its physical exertion - flying. This accounts for the slow velocities and high losses whenever such high temps occur on long distance races particularly. Whenever the temperature exceeds 30 degrees problems begin. Of course there are some birds that can handle high temps better than others. It has a genetic background but roughly speaking the heavier birds are less heat-tolerant than the lighter and smaller-framed.

 

Racing the pigeons in humid conditions reduces their ability to handle high temperatures.

 

Any hindrance to the evaporation rate creates difficulties. Under humid conditions evaporation is drastically reduced and hot conditions can become unbearable.

 

 

In both the above, the position is seriously aggravated when the birds have to battle a headwind. They keep low above the ground (where it is hotter) and have to work harder against the wind pushing up their body temperatures. Results of races on hot headwind days are usually dismal.

 

I do not believe that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit

 

Unless a pigeon is losing Electrolytes there is NO need to use them. Pigeons on a normal temperate day will drink about 50 ml water. On the day that the electrolytes were given it was hotter than usual and the birds accordingly drank more. The fact that there were electrolytes in the water had little to do with their total intake. They had loose bowels because they were given what amounts to a clean-out - as if given Epsom salts. The loose bowels acted as if a purgative had been administered and this action alone would ensure that these birds would drink more water. In fact it could be so dehydrating that they could die if water were totally absent!

 

8. Leo Turley.

 

I too raised an eyebrow when I saw Bob�s 35C maximum. We in Western Australia fly over what is classified as hot desert (especially our inland route) from say 250 miles and beyond and need to draw the line at 24C and slightly higher in a tail wind, where birds can achieve relative altitude commensurate with cooling. Above 24C, wayside water, or the lack of it, dictates whether the birds can carry on after a certain number of hours on the wing. In looking at the maximum 24C here in WA, one needs to judge the velocity of the race, calculate where the birds will be on the course in relation to maximum temperature for the area, whether 24C or higher is being forecast and whether wayside water is readily available. I think it pertinent to quote what I wrote to Steven Van Breemen:

 

"Steven... I read Bob's article and I can't agree with his acceptable temperature range of 20 - 35C... without adequate water along the race course. I believe that without wind assistance anything over 24C is fatal. Here in Western Australia where we race in the heat and in true hot desert country with very little wayside water available and this is the key... temperature is of no consequence if there is plenty of wayside water. I believe it now necessary (here in WA) to have water before the birds before release for at least the same time as it has taken time to travel without water, so they can rehydrate (their hematocrit).

 

9. Bob Rowland

 

I would like to say that the temperature range I gave was dealing only with temperatures without other considerations. For example, 35'C with high humidity is much different than racing at 35'C with low humidity. The more humidity, the more water in the air. The adverse effect of the high humidity is heavy air which makes for extra effort needed to flap their wings. At lower humidity, the air is lighter and therefore less tiring for the pigeons to complete the course.

 

Regardless of the temperature, the pigeons can not stay in the air very long in the rain and again for the same reason, the effort to move their wings becomes greater and the point of inability to flap any longer comes sooner. Rain is 100% humidity or perhaps even greater depending on how we would calculate it. I prefer the lower end of the temperature scale as this makes for an easier task even in greater humidity but again, not too low or the pigeon must exert extra energy to create heat for warming the air or this can also create severe problems. I pointed out what the best range could be and then the additional factors need to be factored in. One can not give a one statement fits all scenario as certainly common sense tells us that racing in the desert must certainly be different than racing in the tropics even at precisely the same temperature.

 

Re. Wim�s  belief that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit: This could be a true statement if we were only trying to race a pigeon that is in perfect electrolyte balance and in the absolute best optimal condition and the distances were just ideal  etc. The reason for having pigeons take the electrolytes is twofold. First to make sure they have enough for the proper balance and second, to consume more water than they normally would so that they will pack their cells with the water and are not beginning the journey without enough water to complete the trip. When we try to believe that all pigeons will be given equal treatment by the convoyer, I prefer to think that if I can give them a head start going in that this certainly can't hurt much. If I did not help them, did I hurt them by giving them a possible edge?

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

I have exchanged such with Gordon, and follow his views as I have often stated.

P.s. I.B.

Sine when has the make of Electolites been of a different make up for Pigeons than in humans :-/

Further, and you are a past master at it, No end of what we - sorry not me - but many give pigeons is in relationship to humans, but in a smaller equation.

[jimmy white]

allthough very interesting indeed,  i  have in fact just been discussing fanciers going by the book,, so to speak , as theres many different veiws on this subject , it may well be worth trying things and experimenting on things that work,,or dont work ,, when i see  " pigeons dont sweat" this is true,,,, but like dogs , they can" sweat"  in a different ways ,,,, we allways seem to think on pigeons, in line with humans,, this, to me is completely wrong , they see different, smell  defferent , they fly, their metabolism is  different ,, in fact the are just completely different , we seem to think they can only loose valuable minerals in their droppings etc, but it must be remembered that a pigeon breathes completely different than us,, we can dehydrate by sweating and by panting, as a pigeon cant sweat but it can breath [hopefully ] and it must be remembered that a pigeons bones are hollow , and in fact can breath through its bones also , so a pigeon, in my opinion can deheydrate in many ways that is so different from humans , therefore the need  to replace these body mineral salts are needed for the abnormal work load we place on a mere 16 ounces bunch of feathers,, only my opinion, and my own obsevation, they do recover quicker from  a  hard race by giving electrolytes [of some kind, maybe your own tried and tested kind ]

[ally mac]

Do pigeons sweat?

[Guest]

Do pigeons sweat?

When my birds are in race condition they feel damp in the hand,but sweat  :-/.

 

 

[ally mac]

Just wondering as my old man was at sea and they were given salt tablets daily when in the tropics etc to replace what was lost in sweat.

 

Al.

[Guest]

Well I may be wrong theoritically but often theory is just that. As we all know the amount of money invested in pigeon research is minimal. I give electrolytes two days before basketing and on return and I use Tesco/Asda rehydration powder, so it's fo humans. I use probiotics for horses and my wife who is a scientist (BSc when degrees were of value - I assume IB is too)like IB tells me I shouldn't do it cause they are for horses... well I shall continue to use them both human and horse  mailnly because of price and they have not adversley affected my birds!

[Guest]

Well I may be wrong theoritically but often theory is just that. As we all know the amount of money invested in pigeon research is minimal. I give electrolytes two days before basketing and on return and I use Tesco/Asda rehydration powder, so it's fo humans. I use probiotics for horses and my wife who is a scientist (BSc when degrees were of value - I assume IB is too)like IB tells me I shouldn't do it cause they are for horses... well I shall continue to use them both human and horse  mailnly because of price and they have not adversley affected my birds!

 

i now do the same allways give on return from race to replace lost salts to recover quickly and i too buy from horse outlets i will give an example  1 small bottle of weatgerm oil from pigeon sourse £2.50 for 100ml 1 gal from horse supplier £12.00 many more savings to be made!!

[Guest IB]

I have exchanged such with Gordon, and follow his views as I have often stated.

P.s. I.B.

Sine when has the make of Electolites been of a different make up for Pigeons than in humans :-/

Further, and you are a past master at it, No end of what we - sorry not me - but many give pigeons is in relationship to humans, but in a smaller equation.

 

If I read your question / statement correctly, then you have not understood the point I was making. I wasn't talking about what's in electrolytes.

 

I was talking about whether the pigeon needs them. My opinion is that it doesn't, because the pigeon's system is totally different from humans and is designed to stop it losing 'salts' during heavy exercise - flight. During flight these 'salts' are needed to keep the body temperature from rising too high.

[Tony C]

I'm a non believer, I stopped using them a few years ago.

[Guest IB]

Do pigeons sweat?

 

Not in the way we do. Not through their skins. Sweating is a way of cooling the body through water evaporation off the skin. In the pigeon water evaporation is through the lungs.  Humans lose salt in sweat; Pigeons lose only water.

[ally mac]

 

Not in the way we do. Not through their skins. Sweating is a way of cooling the body through water evaporation off the skin. In the pigeon water evaporation is through the lungs.  Humans lose salt in sweat; Pigeons lose only water.

 

What about their throat, mouth etc, they are obviosly moist and the air passing through would cause evaporation, could salts be lost there?

[Guest]

i think there are lots of things available for the doos now that they proberbly dont need and we buy them to try and get ahead but i dont believe electrlites is one of them but some fanciers will use it and some wont its up to yourself but the return of the bird is more important than the few days prior to basketing as far as iam concerned so the sooner you put back what the bird has lost the better

[Tony C]

Migratory birds, do they lose salts?

Swifts spend most of their lives on the wing, do they lose salts?

Humming birds use so much energy in flight they have to feed constantly, do they lose salts?

[ally mac]

I was in a stock loft recently that had salt blocks in each section. birds were a picture.

[Guest IB]

 

What about their throat, mouth etc, they are obviosly moist and the air passing through would cause evaporation, could salts be lost there?

 

I don't know for sure, but I think salt molecules would be too big to pass through the lung membrane into the lungs. I think it's designed that way to prevent it happening. If salt got into any part of the airways system it would eventually crystallise - and cause a potential blockage.

[blackdog]

i wouldnt be without them,its about time transporters were made to put them in the water systems,could only benefit the birds especialy on hot days,ie young bird races