single rearing

[harky]

think the result of splayed legs when single reaing is the result of the lack of nesting material more than anthing else

 

got to agree with you there

[Guest]

on this theory bruno it is impossible for anyone to acieve top success as the the required tools are so few and rarely ever available. the follow on from this by your own logic is that you and many of the rest of us have a dookit full of no hopers and at best 3rd raters. if this is where you want to use your feeding its your choice. me ill keep my dreams and keep trying.

 

I don't recall saying anything about no hopers or 3rd rate pigeons. What I do recall is giving an opinion on the probabilities of breeding a champion from the three sources mentioned in our posts : the parents, the champion, a son/daughter of the champion. I simply said my preference was the parents but these are rarely available.

 

I bring in new pigeons every year, sons and daughters, so I do keep trying, and I intend to keep on trying. I also do not class the daughter of a 1st Open Pau winner as a no hoper or a 3rd rate pigeon.

[johno]

but you said you only considered the parents of such pigeons as the 1st open pau. " my preference would always be for the champions parents" your post. implication is that you have settled for something below your preference. you also make a big issue about good racers not always breeding good racers. then tell us you bring in sons and daughters of such pigeons each year. you are handing out advice freely backed up by nothing but hot air. you habitually contradict your self and back track to attempt to save face. as you said the original post was about the benefits, if any of single reaing. my point is regardless of all your theories single reaing no hope third raters is of little benefit to anyone. we should always remember to accomodate single rearing we have to feed two pigeons we do not consider good enough to breed from by our own standards. this does not make sense to me.

[Guest]

but you said you only considered the parents of such pigeons as the 1st open pau. " my preference would always be for the champions parents" your post. implication is that you have settled for something below your preference. you also make a big issue about good racers not always breeding good racers. then tell us you bring in sons and daughters of such pigeons each year. you are handing out advice freely backed up by nothing but hot air. you habitually contradict your self and back track to attempt to save face.

 

Sorry, the hot air is coming from you this time : I offered no advice on breeding champions. As you admit, you introduced the topic of breeding champions on a thread asking about the benefiits of single rearing. You then attempted to subvert your own view(s) as my opinion. I then gave my opinion - that the best chance of breeding champions was from the parents of a champion, and I also qualified that by saying these parents were rarely available. I didn't contradict myself, that is still my opinion.

 

As to sons and daughters of good racers: I am going by both the experience of other members and fanciers and also my own experience; this year I binned the 2002 son of a 5th Open SNFC Rennes and a 2002 daughter of a 1st Open SCC Brussels, which the previous owners bred for stock. Neither bird when paired with multiple partners bred a feather of note for me.

 

as you said the original post was about the benefits, if any of single reaing. my point is regardless of all your theories single reaing no hope third raters is of little benefit to anyone. we should always remember to accomodate single rearing we have to feed two pigeons we do not consider good enough to breed from by our own standards. this does not make sense to me.

 

Just a reminder again that 'no hope third raters' is your stated view and not mine, and as such it is your own views that you are saying that you can't make sense of, and not mine.

 

 

 

[sammy]

thought this thread was about single rearing think its strayed off the topic a bit

[Guest]

thought this thread was about single rearing think its strayed off the topic a bit

 

Yes, I agree with you.

 

I also agree with you about splayed legs being mostly down to poor nesting material.

 

 

[Guest]

Single rearing in my opinion, is just one of a series of personal choices you make about your breeding methods.  You may also have various reasons for doing it.  

 

But I don't think that any pair 'not being able to rear two youngsters' is one of them.    

[sammy]

But I don't think that any pair 'not being able to rear two youngsters' is one of them.   think this is the part that most people miss interpret the point of single rearing is to ensure that robust youngsters are reared not to test the parents rearing qualities  

[Guest TAMMY_1]

But I don't think that any pair 'not being able to rear two youngsters' is one of them.   think this is the part that most people miss interpret the point of single rearing is to ensure that robust youngsters are reared not to test the parents rearing qualities  

 

 

are you trying to say that if there are two in the nest they will not be strong and robust ? how many nests with two chicks in it are reared and grow up to be as good as any single reared one, maybe not as fast but they will still be the same, well reared youngsters

 

[Roland]

Well personally I believe a fit and healthy pair cruise along rearing two, take it in their stride so to speak. The part though that bothers me, is the one not reared being the better option. Yes so you can decide Hen or Cock 70 - 80% unless both same sex of course. And yes the youngster in theory must be better looked after. But a gilli pot of Egg yoke works wonders too for that matter.

Secondarily it is handy to keep down the numbers. JMO

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Well personally I believe a fit and healthy pair cruise along rearing two, take it in their stride so to speak. The part though that bothers me, is the one not reared being the better option. Yes so you can decide Hen or Cock 70 - 80% unless both same sex of course. And yes the youngster in theory must be better looked after. But a gilli pot of Egg yoke works wonders too for that matter.

Secondarily it is handy to keep down the numbers. JMO

 

at last, common sense from you , i agree two should be no problem and if you only hatch one , is the one you do not hatch a potential champion that might have been ? who knows  

[sammy]

 

 

are you trying to say that if there are two in the nest they will not be strong and robust ? how many nests with two chicks in it are reared and grow up to be as good as any single reared one, maybe not as fast but they will still be the same, well reared youngsters

 

thats what i prefer do one of my fads, not disputing what you or anyone else have said on the matter  

[Guest]

I wouldn't think that anyone would throw away one of a pair of eggs unless there was something seriously wrong with that egg,         or the person.  

 

And isn't it strange that in this thread, as in others, we claim to be convinced that any pair will rear two healthy youngsters in the nest without any help from us, yet at the same time follow all sorts of other 'fads' to raise healthier youngsters? Roland has mentioned giving egg yolk here, and baby milk has had its airing too.  

 

As I said before we all have our reasons to believe what we are doing is an improvement ....  

[Tony C]

I much prefer rearing 2 in a nest for a few reasons.

 

I find the cock starts driving his hen to quick when single rearing, I much prefer the parents to concentrate on feeding their squabs for an extra couple of day's, giving them their full attention.

 

Two squabs in the nest help keep each other warm.

 

The squabs compete against each other when fed, competitive nature from day one.

 

If a pigeon rearing two in the nest shows any signs of stress it’ll be no good as will it young.

 

Who knows what pigeons are going to click, best to test two of them than one?

[DOVEScot]

Maybe that's what's wrong you they are chucking all the good eggs out

If a pair of birds cannot raise two healthy chicks, given the fact they are hand fed basically then there is something wrong with them or their conditions :-/

 

[johno]

bruno in your post number 7 on this topic you rave about the nutitional content of pigeon milk. you say it is so good they are using it as a sources of nutrition to feed to chickens. you then imply in your post 37 "isnt it strange that in this thread, as in others we claim to be convinced that any pair will raar two healhy youngsters in the nest without any help fom us" everyone else is guilty of fads and such the like. once again the logic here does not stack up. if the milk of a pigeon is the most nutritious substance known to man ? and nature has deemed that 2 younsters per nest is the most efficient and beneficial situation for pigeons to rear a nest then surely the main fad as you call them must be single rearing. you state that given the fact that by only rearing one youngster in the nest that youngster will benefit from the excess nutrient not goin to a second youngster. once again hot air. a youngster can only consume a certain limit and no matter how much is available the youngsters intake is limited by nature.

[Guest]

On the subject of crop milk nutritional value, and recommendations of feeding it as a supplement to chickens, Roland also confirmed on the crop milk thread he read the same article.

 

On the subject of fads, simply pointing out that what folk were saying about superiority of two youngsters in the nest as against one, then some go on to 'improve on nature' by feeding baby milk and the like.

 

I did give links to the information I had picked up on crop milk, and there is a link to them in this 'single rearing' thread too. These links were:-

 

Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_milk

 

Stanford university

http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Bird_Milk.html

 

Experiment on Columbid clutch sizes of 1, 2 and 3, using Mourning Doves

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v101n01/p0011-p0025.pdf

 

The .pdf document is extremely tuff going, if you go to pages 7, 8 & 9 there are graphs there depicting growth rates in nests containing 1, 2 & 3 youngsters. If you agree crop milk is fed mostly within first 7 days, then take 7 days old as the cut-off point on the graphs: nests containing 1 always come out tops, and the reason can only be down to more crop milk for the single youngster...

 

 

...far from being hot air, these are simply facts which I have already previously shared with others on this forum.

[Roland]

Read once where they reared Chickens on pigeon milk and they developed and grew times faster.

[Tony C]

In my experience I’ve found that single reared babies do flourish in the first 7 days of their life, that I don’t dispute BUT at around the 12 day mark two reared in the same nest will have caught up and in most cases overtaken the single reared ones. Come the 20 day mark the two in the nest are more advanced than the single reared both in body and mind. Reasons? As stated on my previous post on the subject.

 

I would also like to add that racers are for racing and breeders are for breeding. I’d let the racers rear 4 y/birds in their nest if I thought it would make them better racers!

[Guest]

In my experience I’ve found that single reared babies do flourish in the first 7 days of their life, that I don’t dispute BUT at around the 12 day mark two reared in the same nest will have caught up and in most cases overtaken the single reared ones. Come the 20 day mark the two in the nest are more advanced than the single reared both in body and mind. Reasons? As stated on my previous post on the subject.

 

I would also like to add that racers are for racing and breeders are for breeding. I’d let the racers rear 4 y/birds in their nest if I thought it would make them better racers!

 

The research paper stats back up your own experience, Tony, there is an early 'spurt' in the first 7 - 10 days, but the 2-in-a-nest do catch up.

 

I have single reared from day 1: the original reason was that I had 8 pairs but only wanted to breed from 4 of them, and I also wanted every pair of race birds to rear at least one youngster prior to racing. [Now I'm told Natural race birds don't need to raise a youngster before the racing season, and in some cases its best that they don't so that they can be specially set-up, so 2008 will be different.]

 

I also start 'pushing' the youngster around 14 days old: I want to see it out the bowl, and walking around the box, watching everything that is going on in the loft. So I put straw down on the box floor and the youngster usually prefers sitting in that to sat in the bowl, which seems to suits the cock & hen too. I want to see it first watch its parents eating from the gallipot, and then within a few days diving into the gallipot with the parents.  And I want to see it drink before it leaves the box, so there's a jar of water in there too, and once it drinks there's another growth 'spurt'.

 

And to make sure its eating & drinking on its own, its left until around 28 days old before its shifted to the young bird end. Think I've had only one youngster 'go back' in 6 years.

 

Note what you say about sibling competition, Tony. Feeding my birds today, wished I'd a camcorder to film my birds at the feeder. Think you'd get a pleasant shock, both the cocks & hens are pretty stroppy.  

 

 

[jimmy white]

in my opinion a single reared yb grows faster than it should ,,nature didnt intend this , may sound daft but my opinion ,, a pair of healthy constitutional pigeons , looked after properly should be able to rear two perfect ybs, if not , there is something wrong with the management,or  something wrong with the pigeon pair, be it constitutional or otherwise if nature says there should be two , there will be many natural reasons for this,,,,,but, our pigeons are domesticated and need every aid possible i.e nourishment, clean air, etc etc.

[pigeonscout]

One thing I have noticed with single winter reared young birds is that they do not have fret marks on 1st and 2nd flight. You will see these marks when there are two in the nest.

You do not see theses marks on the summer reared.

Take a look at your young birds to see if I am right.

[pjc]

A few years ago I had a pair that would only ever rear one youngster, they would hatch 2 but only 1 would survive! If I split the eggs up under different pairs both would survive.

When I checked through the records of both birds they had both been single reared so had the 2 generations above them.

They seem to have begun to beleive it was only natural to rear 1 each round.