are we too clean?

[Guest strapper]

this morning on gmtv a specialist was explaining about the rise in hay fever sufferers and the length in time now that sufferers have.

when asked why is this rise happening ...she explained that change in climate and we ....are too clean at home!

in other words ..we dont allow our bodies to catch germs and form an imunity against them.......could this also be the reason why so many lofts have these diseases and you hear many say..........we didnt have these years a go!

is this the reason why top fanciers abroad leave droppings on the lofts floors to dry out ....i think the boscheind flyers do this!

i think their belief is that it forms an better imunity for their youngbirds....food for thought?

[Guest]

I have believed in this for years now Paul. In fact up until I restarted last year after a few years out, my birds never received medication on a routine basis. I have always kept my pigeons on a deep litter system and only ever cleaned it out once a year before pairing up in January. Most of these illnesses in pigeons occur during the summer months when the temperature in the "modern lofts" is high, making ideal conditions for harvesting bacteria and disease. I also believe that since the compulsory vaccination against PMV the immune system in pigeons has deteriorated to an all time low. I would also add that the vogue in having Continental birds in out lofts hasn't helped either. More food for thought.

[Guest]

I might also add that we all keep far more birds compared to what we used to, to combat heavy losses (for various reasons) and this can also be detrimental to our birds welfare. We seem to adopt a continuous top-up system and this does not allow a natural immunity to build up in our pigeons.

[thunderboult]

this morning on gmtv a specialist was explaining about the rise in hay fever sufferers and the length in time now that sufferers have.

when asked why is this rise happening ...she explained that change in climate and we ....are too clean at home!

in other words ..we dont allow our bodies to catch germs and form an imunity against them.......could this also be the reason why so many lofts have these diseases and you hear many say..........we didnt have these years a go!

is this the reason why top fanciers abroad leave droppings on the lofts floors to dry out ....i think the boscheind flyers do this!

i think their belief is that it forms an better imunity for their youngbirds....food for thought?

 

i've always gone down the route of leaving the droppings on the floor of the yb loft and have had no problems, this year i've had yb's from 8 diffrent lofts but not a single problem with any of them. recently i've seen 2 dvd's from continental lofts who've won the barcelona international and they have the same system, also mark gilbert's youngster's are kept on their droppings and there's not many better than him.

 

[holmsidelofts]

Hi i agree with thunderbolt, With young birds you have to get there immune system used to all the common diseases that we come up against, be to clean wont allow the birds to get used to theses diseases, as long as your loft is dry and the droppings dry out quickly with no mould on them then i would clean out that often.

[Babybird]

I am going to set up my loft with deep shavings for initially 3 yb's in and 8x6 hopefully increasing to 15 soon, how long do I leave it in between cleaning? Thw wee man over the road scrapes his out twice a day but he has nothing on the floor and is worn out with all the work!!!I have noted the abouve advicebut looking for a bit of clarity,once a week? month?

[Guest]

I put my youngsters on deep litter from the time they are weaned until after they have finished racing.

[Guest Owen]

I think that we are too clean in that the birds do not build up their natural immunity. On the other hand, I would not use anything that comes from wood to form a base of the deep litter. There is the risk of too many chemical compounds in it. But it is as holmsidelofts says, the key is to keep things dry. Droppings should be able to dry out quickly so that the risk of canker, cocci and worms contaminating the birds is kept to a minimum. Besides there is now scientific evidence that the best form of probiotic for the birds comes from the dry droppings. Sounds disgusting I know, but it is a fact.

On the other hand there is no excuse for wet droppings on the perches and there certainly no excuse for allowing lice and such to take over. Sometimes at basketing nights at the Club, especially on young birds, I have had lice all over my shirt. That, to me, is unacceptable.

[Babybird]

I would not use anything that comes from wood to form a base of the deep litter. There is the risk of too many chemical compounds in it.

 

What would you suggest, I was thinking of the shavings you get for horses??

 

[Tony C]

I would not use anything that comes from wood to form a base of the deep litter. There is the risk of too many chemical compounds in it.

 

What would you suggest, I was thinking of the shavings you get for horses??

 

I use Easibed which is a bedding for horses, never had any problems with it in fact I recommend its use.

[Tony C]

 

I use Easibed which is a bedding for horses, never had any problems with it in fact I recommend its use.

 

http://www.easibed.co.uk/

[Babybird]

Thank you that was what I had in mind, good to know it comes reccommended

I use Easibed which is a bedding for horses, never had any problems with it in fact I recommend its use.

 

 

[Roland]

this morning on gmtv a specialist was explaining about the rise in hay fever sufferers and the length in time now that sufferers have.

when asked why is this rise happening ...she explained that change in climate and we ....are too clean at home!

in other words ..we dont allow our bodies to catch germs and form an imunity against them.......could this also be the reason why so many lofts have these diseases and you hear many say..........we didnt have these years a go!

is this the reason why top fanciers abroad leave droppings on the lofts floors to dry out ....i think the boscheind flyers do this!

i think their belief is that it forms an better imunity for their youngbirds....food for thought?

 

Has been well known.... self imunerisation. Remember a doctor telling a woman that kept running to him with the child every sneeze so to speak. 'For pete's sake let him roll in the muck and make some mud pies'.

 

 

[T_T]

For a few years now, I have spread a light straw dressing on the yb floor and allowed the droppings to build up and dry off.  I don't know what ybs is and just about two weeks ago I stamped the youngsters wearing a white vest ( me, not them lol ) and never saw or found one lice on me after finishing. I keep the box perches clean but don't touch the loft floor until the season is finished but the loft must be absolutely dry to start with or trouble will come calling.

[Guest]

I use easibed

[john@formula 1 lofts]

My Y/b's get weaned to a clean loft with deep litter but do not get cleaned out until there moult has finished.

 

[retired]

Have the Young birds down on Hemcore deep litter - Apart from scraping the perches every 2-3 weeks they wont get touched.

[just ask me]

well i have one set of young ones on deep litter and the batch cleaned every day the cleaned lot are younger  so cant really comment yet did this to see how things go should be intresting  :-/

[thomasd]

i have been told to use linestone grit on the floors here for deep litter does any1 know if thats good or bad

[Guest Owen]

Years ago there was a writter called Old Hand. He recommended useing dry sand mixed with garden lime. I used it about 40 years ago and it worked well. The probem with it was that if it did get a bit wet it was awful. And I will always want to use pigeon droppings on the garden, but this stuff was not very practical. The other problem was trying to find dry sand in the first place.

[Guest strapper]

i have used deep litter all my time keeping pigeons ,it drys out the muck...any bad bits gets thrown out and replaced with new shavings.

underneath the litter i put whitening..think its lime based to kill any bacteria underneath .

surprising how many birds love to nest in the litter.

many believe deep litter is a lazymans way and dirty for the birds which anyone knows that uses deep litter the proper way isnt.

its bone dry .

[Guest IB]

Posted up on yoghurt, probiotics and 'too clean' on other threads. From the same book extract below, there is a claim that 'too clean' starts for humans in the birth room. In latter days, the mother seeded her offsprings sterile gut during the birth with the 'good bacteria' the baby needed for its gut immune system.

 

Here's the bit on yoghurt:-

 

 

Gut Microflora – Digestive Physiology and Pathology ISBN 207420-0585-4

 

Extract Chapter 3 (by Philippe Marteau) Pages 42 – 47

 

Probiotics are living bacteria or yeast, present in certain foods, particularly fermented dairy products. They participate in their production, or have been added to them or medicinal products. The number of living microorganisms in each product is often greater than 10,000,000.

 

The majority of studies have described the survival of probiotics in the gut. The active substances are still unknown, except for the lactase enzyme contained in the yogurt bacteria.

 

Probiotic examples in supplements or medical products:-

 

Bifidobacterium lactis

Bifidobacterium animalis

Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Lactobacillus johnsonii

Lactobacillus casei

Lactobacillus casei shirota

Lactobacillus salivarius

Lactobacillus reuteri

Enterococcus faecium

Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 (non-pathogenic e-coli)

Saccharomyces boulardii  (a yeast)

 

Survival and colonization of probiotics in the gut.  

 

Survival differs according to species and strain. Some are destroyed as soon as they pass into the stomach, while others survive to be recovered in faeces. The yogurt bacteria  Lactobacillus delbruekii bulgaricus and Streptococcus thrmophilus have low tolerance to acid and are destroyed within a few minutes. The stomach has a Ph of  1.

 

A count of 100,000 - a viable concentration of starter bacteria - has been observed in the small intestine (survivors from 10,000,000 eaten in 430g of yogurt). Lactococcus lactis had a low survival there because of low tolerance to acid and bile.  Some  Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus plantarum NCIB 8826 eaten in yogurt,  have a significant rate of survival in faeces with faecal concentrations greater than 100,000,000 per gram. Lactobacillus acidophilus, reuteri, and  rhamnosus faecal concentrations were 1,000,000 per gram. In humans, 1 gram a day of Saccharomyces boulardii  faecal concentrations were 100,000 per gram.

 

Probiotics are usually excreted in faeces a few days after they are eaten. Some colonization of the gut lining has been observed. The concentrations of microorganisms passing through the gut after a probiotic are often as large as those seen during chronic bacterial infection.  

 

So how do they work?

 

It is still not fully understood. Probiotics share one thing only in common – they are all non-pathogenic. In all other respects they differ considerably from one another. In diverse clinical cases, in both humans and animals, they have been demonstrated to have significant multiple, direct beneficial effects. Several have direct beneficial effects on the gut mucous lining. Many animal studies have found oral probiotic administration could modulate the gut wall immune barrier and / or the systemic immune barrier, in particular the ingestion of very high quantities of yogurt bacteria.

 

 

[pigeondan]

We were all raised on my Gran's theory "clean meet never fattened any pigs" and god bless her soul she was right we all rarely get any infections only trouble we get is when we go to foreign climates and are subject to bugs that our systems are alien to, but we cope a lot better than some pampered individuals who have Boots pharmacy in their itinerary :-/

 

And you could related this to a lot of other species including pigeons :-/

[chrissy]

I would not use anything that comes from wood to form a base of the deep litter. There is the risk of too many chemical compounds in it.

 

What would you suggest, I was thinking of the shavings you get for horses??

 

Shavings are no use,they are too light and it all just ends up banked up the sides with a bare floor in the middle.We have all our birds on soft chip which is again used for horses,it's identical to easi bed but about £1 a bale cheaper,we still go round every day and pick the droppings off the top.

Although we would never personally use a deep litter system a deep litter system managed correctly can work but this is not to be confused with deep poo ie the lazy fanciers method!!

Some people say not cleaning out builds imunity,it just builds disease,how healthy would you be if you were locked in a shed with god knows how many other people sat in your own poo?

[Guest strapper]

 

Shavings are no use,they are too light and it all just ends up banked up the sides with a bare floor in the middle.We have all our birds on soft chip which is again used for horses,it's identical to easi bed but about £1 a bale cheaper,we still go round every day and pick the droppings off the top.

Although we would never personally use a deep litter system a deep litter system managed correctly can work but this is not to be confused with deep poo ie the lazy fanciers method!!

Some people say not cleaning out builds imunity,it just builds disease,how healthy would you be if you were locked in a shed with god knows how many other people sat in your own poo?

 

 

i think you have got it wrong...deep litter doesnt mean deep shxt..ur entitled to your opinion but doesnt mean its right.

deep litter doesnt mean not cleaning out!!