behind the scenes at louella

[BLACK W F]

GOOD POINTS DAVID AND GOOD POST

[Guest]

Wasn't Darwin slammed for his theory on like for like?  

[pigeonpete]

GOOD POINTS DAVID AND GOOD POST

 

have you been behind the scenes at louella alan? have you found the staff helpful??  

[BLACK W F]

I BEEN A LOT OF PLACES BUT NOT THERE YET

[swilcox]

Owen

 

I agree 100% i believe that all pigeons should be tested on the vtality, health and homing ability and this can only be done with judgement and the basket. Stud often means unraced and untried and thats the problem, granted Raymond Moleveld is a stud but we do what we can to race all the lines we sell and as much as possible test the families and weed out the weak ones, for our own benifit and others.

 

Stuart

[swilcox]

Whitenight, that doesnt suprise me as the Eijerkamp Family have an excellent racing record.

[david]

Wasn't Darwin slammed for his theory on like for like?  

 

No!

 

On his death bed he was heard to say " surely there must be a god "

 

The anti- Darwin brigade then got hold of this and decided to say that he denounced his theory's of evolution and started to believe in a godly creation

 

God had got hold of him and showed him the way so to speak!!

 

DAVID

[Guest]

 

No!

 

On his death bed he was heard to say " surely there must be a god "

 

The anti- Darwin brigade then got hold of this and decided to say that he denounced his theory's of evolution and started to believe in a godly creation

 

God had got hold of him and showed him the way so to speak!!

 

DAVID

Nice reply.     What I meant by him being slammed for his 'like for like' is Darwin actually kept pigeons and made all sorts of claims but in truth the only certain thing about his theory is that a pigeon would breed a pigeon the rest is down to natural selection.   God or no God, that's pretty accurate although Darwin never banked on breeders messing about to the degree they could if they wanted breed a bird with three wings.  ??) ;D ;D ;D

 

 

[Guest strapper]

what id like to know is what fed darwin flew in? ;D ;D ;D

 

i also believe that a quality pigeon can be as dull as dishwater if not handled properly.

also i believe a not so well bred pigeon can perform if handled correctly!

 

 

[david]

Hi Strapper ..

 

How is sunny  wales today mate ?

 

I have a couple of champion( trialing) cockers  here that come from your neck of the woods..

 

 

I think we are talking about the birds natural inbred ability's and not what the fancier can achieve with them ...but i get your point !.

 

A crap bird wont put up breath taking performances in any loft or with any manager.

 

DAVID

[Guest]

How do you know its crap though?   Seen scrawny birds that wouldn't win a game of bingo turn into swans (figure of speach) and go on to win many a race.  

[Guest Owen]

David

to clear up my thoughts on inbreeding. Obviously, inbreeding has had an important role in producing livestock of every sort. But it is important to decide what a back garden Fancier can and can not do. Bearing in mind that the basis of inbreeding lies in the fact that the Breeder can identify, accurately, the characterisics he wants to breed for. And that the features are measureable. In chicken it might be egg production. Egg numbers are measureable so it is quite easy to select the best progeny. In cattle it could be weight gain, and again it is entirely measureable. And in both species there is the little matter that the ratio of males to females born is about 50% of each. But the ratio of males to females used in breeding are many females to just a few males. This makes the possibility of selecting males much more rigorous. And so speeds things up.

The problem for pigeon breeders is two fold. The first being that progeny testing is very difficult and measuring the results can be a nightmare. The second problem is that normal Fanciers can not normally keep enough birds to make the selections viable. The ideal is to keep families of pigeons that are pure, together for 6 generations at least. And the matings should not take place between the families unless the chacteristics origally bred for are consolidated into the genes by rigorous selection all the way without exception. I can only speculate as to what characters would be selected for. Speed in races might not work too well because one of the drawbacks of inbreeding is that individuals loose vigour. The vigour comes in abundance when two families from the same selection background are mated together. Further matings are not thought to be much good at all for producing future generations.

With all this in mind I have opted to employ the Bull System where I can continually cross breed and still ensure that at least one parent has exceptional results to back up their selection as breeders. As an afterthought, it is generally reckoned that pigeons would revert back to the rock dove, genetically, after about 6 to 8 generations. So the picture I have in my mind is, that unless we select and test continually, the weight of genetics will inevitably pull towards the original. The original being the rock dove where it all started hundreds if not thousands of years ago.

Thanks for the chance to have a discussion about these things.        

[Leroy]

As an afterthought, it is generally reckoned that pigeons would revert back to the rock dove, genetically, after about 6 to 8 generations. So the picture I have in my mind is, that unless we select and test continually, the weight of genetics will inevitably pull towards the original. The original being the rock dove where it all started hundreds if not thousands of years ago.

Thanks for the chance to have a discussion about these things.        

 

That has got me thinking! I know Darwin experimented with breeding different fancy breeds together to see how many generations it took to revert back to a wild type, and it was something like 8 generations, but until your post I had not thought about that in relation to racing ability. That does make alot of sense. BUT surely we dont know how much racing ability a wild rock dove has, and whether countless domestic generations have moved us away from the racing ability which we now seek, so the more we inbreed the further away we get from the ability - could explain how more and more birds get lost each year...just a thought...

 

 

[Guest Owen]

Leroy

that is exactly the point. There are thousands of young birds entered in races every year that have little or no proven ability in terms of performance. And worse still there are Fanciers who will be happy to stop young birds because they are afraid of loosing them. Often, these young birds will have been bred from parents who have done nothing in terms of performance. That is automatically putting the pressure on in the wrong way. The pressure must be always be towards breeding better birds not worse ones.

In my view, a major reason for young bird losses are caused by entering birds that are just not up to the job, in races. I know it is difficult to actually do, but the solution is simple. Only breed from proven birds. Even then there will be losses but in each generation things will get better. I only breed from winning cocks and nothing else. My hens are only raced as youngsters so they can only be judged on their performances on that one year. But it is surprising how the numbers of hens that have won prizes have built up. I still have losses but I can say that my birds look better and are generally better in terms of health. And better still they are far more reliable.

I employ the Bull System for breeding and as you will have read, I am a believer in outcrossing continually. So to this end I have just bought a cock. Not any old cock. This bird has solid performances behind him at Fed and Club level and is the son af a father that has done even better. He will be paired to at least 8 hens. And so the cycle will go on. Soon I will be breeding pigeons with winners in every generation. And I bet there will still be poor ones trying to drag me back towards the Rock Dove.

[betty boo]

i bought 6 8 year old stock birds only one laid i put the other 5 inthe bin

wont get any more from them :o

[BLACK W F]

at the end of the day you pay your money you take your chance but if you buy some of the older stock birds the risk you run is they dont lay or fill   but  i do think that if you get the right lines and they fill you could be onto a winner as they do have a lot of very good blood lines JMO

[Nibby]

Just to say thanks to david for your kind words most appreciated ( and you Alan i suppose)

And also to all those with fair comments

[Guest pigeon82]

thats why your better off buying young birds at least you know they aint laid or worn out from rearing all the time

[Guest pigeon82]

as i said befor my dad buys young birds every year and i got one off him this year 1st race 1st club 7th fed 10th sect thats the way to do it and ill be getting more next year same family british pharoahs

[glenrandal]

got some older stock in  from louella a few years ago could not fault them. young off them flew well including the channel into derry...

[edwards]

they are in a lot of sh** folks over pmv birds sold do not for one minute think every thing is rosey in studs the gobshites that manage them couldn give a toss and yes louella if you see this get in touch you wiped 90%of my mates birds out over pmv birds you sold they died in 2 days of each other and a domino affect that was shocking there sales will plumet let me tell ye  :-/ >

[BLACK W F]

well edwards a couple of my mates bought but they culled 1or 2 but the rest ok and nothing wrong with there birds  so christ knows but surely you would see straight away you do not put birds straight into your loft i keep them in crates for 5-7 dys before i will put in loft  and you would spot any not right

[edwards]

well edwards a couple of my mates bought but they culled 1or 2 but the rest ok and nothing wrong with there birds  so christ knows but surely you would see straight away you do not put birds straight into your loft i keep them in crates for 5-7 dys before i will put in loft  and you would spot any not right

never bought from a stud mate only out of lofts and if you buy anything specially from a house hold stud like them you expect profesional kept healthy birds no matter what would you sell un protected birds to anyone id say no but gangsters would

 

 

[Guest]

never bought from a stud mate only out of lofts and if you buy anything specially from a house hold stud like them you expect profesional kept healthy birds no matter what would you sell un protected birds to anyone id say no but gangsters would

 

Well said that man .

 

 

[big blue bar]

i bought birds from there this year and guess what happened YES my birds got pmv bought 6 and ended up nearly killing more than 20 birds from my team of 65 BUT ON OTHER HAND EVERY BODY IS SLATING THIS STUD I BOUGHT 6 BIRD LAST YEAR AND HAD NO PROBLEMS EVEN WON 2 RACES OUT OF THE 6 I BOUGHT  any way my birds have recovered from this disease and out of the birds i had left i raced jumping them into 127 miles first race out of 14 got 9  this week past was there second race 151 miles and scored a first club  first fed with a bird i bred from a pair of birds from LOUELLA