ROUTINE USE OF ANTIBIOTICS

[velo99]

 

I had an illness earlier this season after entering a few birds in a show. I used antibiotics to no avail in the beginning. After I lost a few birds and did more research, I found there was more to it than simply dropping a couple of teaspoons of powder in the water.

I scrubbed the loft daily removing the infected feces,changed to a small seed,low protien feed regimine,and used probios daily in the feed and water.

I spoke with another fancier who lost 30 birds. I consider myself lucky to have lost only 8. One has to be sure that the illness can be treated with antibiotics.

I seldom use antibiotics.

v99

[Guest TAMMY_1]

 

THERE ARE PLENTY OF SHEEP OUT THERE IN PIGEON MENS CLOTHES .......

 

and I am the ram  ;D

[Guest]

I think this continued misuse and abuse of medications is at the bottom of the resistance patterns you mention . Too often fanciers reach for the Baytril, for example, when another product may be just as good. Baytril should be used only as the big gun when other products aren't doing the job, and should definitely NOT be the first choice for most infections, with some exceptions. Ideally, the organism in question should be laboratory tested to determine its sensitivity to a range of antibiotics, but I doubt that this is done by most fanciers. Instead they reach for the Baytril - and this is going to create major problems for all of us, because I doubt very much that the correct dosage for the correct period of time is always followed.

 

[jimmy white]

The people who routinely use antibiotics - use a different pigeon forum  ;D

;D ;D ;D

 

wouldnt recommend the use of antibiotics , unless absolutely neccessary

[WulDon]

it would appear that fanciers are shying away from the fact that the use of antibiotics/medication correctly could be beneficial to our 'athletes of the sky'

 

as mentioned in this post some of the leading fanciers in the UK let alone worldwide are using some form of medication to keep there pigeons in peak physical condition and these are the lads who are hammering most other fanciers on a saturday... Dave Allen is without a doubt a fancier who ranks as one of the UK's finest and i quote from his RP article 9th November 2001... 'it's sad but I am afraid that in this day and age to compete successfully you have to revert to the medicine cupboard from time to time...'

[Guest j.bamling]

i dont use antibiotics as a preventive instead i try to go to a local pigeon vet on a regular basis !! and i treat only when he says so !!

[Guest]

I have no difficulty with 'test & treat if necessary'. My difficulty is with those who say that routine dosing is 'absolutely' necessary to keep winning.

 

There is too much evidence which says that constantly using antibiotics simply creates organisms resistant to medication. There are safer ways.

 

A probiotic contains beneficial bacteria which can in themselves produce natural antibiotics which kill or see off other harmful species. Allicin the garlic compound works by interfering with the function of the organisms enzymes, these are wholly natural secretions in every living thing that perform different vital functions and these functions are crucial to the organism's well-being. So nothing will ever become resistant to allicin as nothing will ever survive its enzyme action being altered..

 

Back in 1961 Dr Leon Whitney wrote a book 'Keep your pigeons flying'. Lost my original copy yonks ago, but now got that book from the library, and while much of it is well out of date - using DDT and the like   - even back then there was evidence that cocci and canker had different strains, that low levels were 'natural', that the birds immune system kept these at very low levels, that these low levels were maintained to keep the immune system fettled up, including 'seeding' newly hatched youngsters, and that exposure conferred natural immunity against the more dangerous strains.

 

Incidently, Whitney discovered that what really makes a pigeon with cocci sick, is not the cocci, but the damage done to the gut wall which allowed bacteria access to poison the blood. He treated the blood poisoning, and the bird took care of the cocci itself.

 

That takes us back to Probiotics, these colonise the gut wall and prevent other bacteria from attaching to it. And if cocci oocysts are dried out on the loft floor, they are then killed, and cannot reinfect the bird, even when eaten again. So how many of those cocci oocysts in the microscope slide are dead oocysts and how can we tell the difference?

 

    

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Thanks Tammy

 

Well as you started this thread a long time ago when I previously stated that I would not routinely use antibiotics a lot has changed this season with my birds, and after some problems , which you advised me on and the problems were eradicated , I  would now have to say that I do now keep, and will use antibiotics in a yearly programme whether there is a problem or not, there has also been a lot more fliers who previously said they never treat for anything, that have since on various threads now state they treat pigeons regularily for problems, whether as a preventative or a cure , they still now admit to treatments which before they denied they ever did, as you said one of the best advised you what to do to remain at the top, and that was simply in this day and age you have to treat birds to stay at the top as this quote made  shows another top flier also advocates the use of treatments to stay at the top.

 

WulDon Thursday, November 22, 2007, 8:27pm  Report to Webmaster

 

 

Squeaker

 

Posts: 114

Gender:  Male

Location: dundee it would appear that fanciers are shying away from the fact that the use of antibiotics/medication correctly could be beneficial to our 'athletes of the sky'

 

as mentioned in this post some of the leading fanciers in the UK let alone worldwide are using some form of medication to keep there pigeons in peak physical condition and these are the lads who are hammering most other fanciers on a saturday... Dave Allen is without a doubt a fancier who ranks as one of the UK's finest and i quote from his RP article 9th November 2001... 'it's sad but I am afraid that in this day and age to compete successfully you have to revert to the medicine cupboard from time to time...'

 

there was another statement you made on another thread which must ring true with people who still claim not to use anything at all, bet if you looked in their pigeon store you would see a treatment of some sort, this is the statement you recently made.

 

chrissy Wednesday, November 21, 2007, 9:35pm  Quote  Report to Webmaster

 

 

Fancy Fancier

 

Posts: 675

Gender:  Female

Location: derbyshire

 

 

Spot on,you have to treat these days and anyone who says they don't do it is either lying or you shouldn't touch their birds with a barge pole!!

 

As I  said previously way back at the start of this thread that it was the wrong way to go, events of the year completely changed my whole way of thinking about antibiotics and treatments, and now I intend to use the year long programme which I have in place, and I will be sticking to it regardless as to whether the birds are ill or not.

And I would gamble that their are a lot of really top fliers who will swear they do not use anything, and like you said I would also now think they were not being 100% truthful, you just have to look at MIKE LYCETT, who has won scores of prizes and recently his birds were sold for a fortune, he advertised for sale a full stock of his drugs and treatments, so obviously he must have used them and here is the list he was selling, and this contains among other things anti biotics.

 

1 x Full Bottle Verhellen Natural Eye Protector

1 x Unused Box Koudjis - The Best Smoke Bomb stuff going

3 x bottles E & E (Ticks mite etc)

1 x Full Bottle Hydrogen Peroxide never used - past its date now

1 x Unused Tub Comed Cometose

1 x 30 ml unused bottle NYSTATIN (09/06)

200mg Metronidazole tablets - already broken into quarters. Dunno how many.

Approx 30 Gamba Tabs (Probably past their date)

1 x part used tub Ronidazole 10% (canker)

1 x Hardly used bottle SEDOCHOL

20 sachets ADENOSAN

1 x Part Used NYSTAN (02 date on it)

1 and a half sachets GAMBAZIN (Respiratory)

1 x Unused bottle ZELL OXYGEN

Approx 100 MAGIX tablets

1 x 500grm tub DYNAMIK

Approx 16 Rohnfried TOPWELL tablets

1 x Tub ORNITHOSE III

1 x 50grm tub EMTRYL

1 x Part used tub MEDIZOLE

1 x Nearly Full COXI PLUS

1 x Neraly Full 100grm DOXYCYCLINE

1 x Full TYLOBIOTIC

1 x Bottle MOXIDECTIN

1 x Full PROCOL12

1 x Full 125ml bottle BAYCOX

1 x Part Used bottle MEDITRICH

30 GAMBAMIX-TRIO tablets (Expired 03!!!)

Approx 20 DOXYBIRD tablets

1 x Part used NAZALINE

1 and a half tubs ENTRO-BIOTIC

1 x Part Used AMINOVIT

 

 

Any queries please PM me - best offer by 9pm Saturday secures

 

Will post if required but will need to see how much that costs

 

Would cost you HUNDREDS to acquire all this - and its largely TOP stuff

 

We don't tolerate any crap

 

Mike

_________________

If in doubt - go with your instinct !

 

http://www.mrslycettandson.com

 

So it is indeed changed days and for sure plenty will still deny using anything, thats up to them but they are only kidding themselves on, as was I, that you never need to use anything, which I found out to my cost, certainly will not be caught out again as I now believe prevention is better than curing, same reason we go to the doctors for the flu jab , we don't wait till we have the flu.

[Guest shadow]

continual use of antibiotics will ruin the birds imune system ??)

[Guest TAMMY_1]

continual use of antibiotics will ruin the birds imune system ??)

 

Nobody is saying there is a continual use of anti biotics, I  just intend using them in a year long programme where they will be used twice a year and this is far from continual use as I see it, but each individual is entitled to do as they deem fit with their birds.

[Guest]

Tammy: - "believe prevention is better than curing, same reason we go to the doctors for the flu jab , we don't wait till we have the flu."

 

Comparing apples and pears there, I think....

 

Its quite normal to go to the doctor for seasonal jabs. The purpose of vaccination / immunisation is to introduce the immune system to a mild form of the disease.  It has been proved beyond doubt that the body then quickly recognises future attacks by the same or similar organisms and sees them off double-quick time.

 

What we don't normally go to the doctor and ask for is an antibiotic prescription for an illness that we don't have at the moment but 'might' catch in the future. If we did we'd get the 'bums rush' out the surgery door because this is a misuse of antibiotics and misuse creates bacteria resistant to that whole class of antibiotics. It can also make them resistant to a whole range of other medications, because bacteria can swop and spread their resistance properties during 'reproduction'. For goodness sake, we have two well known human cases: MRSA  and Chlostridium? Difficile that prove that even professional doctors can get antibiotic uses / doses wrong and they created two superbugs that kill people in hospitals, isn't that warning enough?

 

For over 50 years there's evidence for at least canker and cocci, that once the parent bird introduces these organisms into their youngster during the first days of feeding (and beneficial bacteria) that this acts in the same way as vaccination / immunisation and stops these ever becoming a problem in the future.

 

And over the same period we have reports of superstrains of canker in pigeons,  resistant to all medication. The researchers say resistance has been caused by repeated use of medication. And in my opinion this is because people haven't taken time to understand basic biology - that 'prevention' involves maintaining a healthy immune system that has learned to recognise and is able to attack harmful organisms long before they become a problem. Flooding the body with antibiotics just doesn't do that, in fact, it probably does the opposite.

 

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Tammy: - "believe prevention is better than curing, same reason we go to the doctors for the flu jab , we don't wait till we have the flu."

 

Comparing apples and pears there, I think....

 

Its quite normal to go to the doctor for seasonal jabs. The purpose of vaccination / immunisation is to introduce the immune system to a mild form of the disease.  It has been proved beyond doubt that the body then quickly recognises future attacks by the same or similar organisms and sees them off double-quick time.

 

What we don't normally go to the doctor and ask for is an antibiotic prescription for an illness that we don't have at the moment but 'might' catch in the future. If we did we'd get the 'bums rush' out the surgery door because this is a misuse of antibiotics and misuse creates bacteria resistant to that whole class of antibiotics. It can also make them resistant to a whole range of other medications, because bacteria can swop and spread their resistance properties during 'reproduction'. For goodness sake, we have two well known human cases: MRSA  and Chlostridium? Difficile that prove that even professional doctors can get antibiotic uses / doses wrong and they created two superbugs that kill people in hospitals, isn't that warning enough?

For over 50 years there's evidence for at least canker and cocci, that once the parent bird introduces these organisms into their youngster during the first days of feeding (and beneficial bacteria) that this acts in the same way as vaccination / immunisation and stops these ever becoming a problem in the future.

 

And over the same period we have reports of superstrains of canker in pigeons,  resistant to all medication. The researchers say resistance has been caused by repeated use of medication. And in my opinion this is because people haven't taken time to understand basic biology - that 'prevention' involves maintaining a healthy immune system that has learned to recognise and is able to attack harmful organisms long before they become a problem. Flooding the body with antibiotics just doesn't do that, in fact, it probably does the opposite.

 

IS THE PART OF YOUR QUOTE THAT IS HIGHLIGHTED RED NOT SIMILAR TO THE START OF YOUR POST WHERE YOU SAY  it is like comparing apples and pears, well is it not the same where you are comparing human illnesses to bird problems, is this not apples and pears also ?

[Guest]

Tammy, the only apples & pears was you saying a flu jab was the same as using antibiotics to prevent a future illness. It is not and they are in fact complete opposites. Administering a vaccine is a recognised preventative treatment in which the patient is deliberately infected with a inactivated disease-causing agent which prevents a future infection by strengthening the immune system to cope with a future attack; an antibiotic is a recognised emergency treatment to cure an active bacterial infection because the immune system has been weakened and can't cope with the attack.

 

I expanded on that to point out that antibiotic misuse created superbugs in humans and in pigeons. That's not apples & pears, we are talking about antibiotic misuse - and the effects of that misuse are exactly the same throughout the animal world - superbugs totally resistant to normal medication.

 

 

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Tammy, the only apples & pears was you saying a flu jab was the same as using antibiotics to prevent a future illness. It is not and they are in fact complete opposites. Administering a vaccine is a recognised preventative treatment in which the patient is deliberately infected with a inactivated disease-causing agent which prevents a future infection by strengthening the immune system to cope with a future attack; an antibiotic is a recognised emergency treatment to cure an active bacterial infection because the immune system has been weakened and can't cope with the attack.

 

I expanded on that to point out that antibiotic misuse created superbugs in humans and in pigeons. That's not apples & pears, we are talking about antibiotic misuse - and the effects of that misuse are exactly the same throughout the animal world - superbugs totally resistant to normal medication.

 

 

What super bug has it created in pigeons ?

 

[Guest]

Tammy, the only apples & pears was you saying a flu jab was the same as using antibiotics to prevent a future illness. It is not and they are in fact complete opposites. Administering a vaccine is a recognised preventative treatment in which the patient is deliberately infected with a inactivated disease-causing agent which prevents a future infection by strengthening the immune system to cope with a future attack; an antibiotic is a recognised emergency treatment to cure an active bacterial infection because the immune system has been weakened and can't cope with the attack.

 

I expanded on that to point out that antibiotic misuse created superbugs in humans and in pigeons. That's not apples & pears, we are talking about antibiotic misuse - and the effects of that misuse are exactly the same throughout the animal world - superbugs totally resistant to normal medication.

 

The point is Bruno that none of the anti treat brigade seem to be grasping here is that firstly half the treatments used are natural ie cider vinegar,garlic,pro biotics etc and secondly that although we do use drugs they are alternated to avoid resistance [ie for worms,canker and coxi] and thirdly that we probably use anti biotics alot less than those that profess to not treat as our birds don't get sick because they are treated!!

[Guest]

 

What super bug has it created in pigeons ?

 

 

Can’t find the article that Craig Speight posted on supercanker. Will have a look in my own computer files for it. Meanwhile here is an email reply from Gordon Chalmers and part of his article which accompanied it, and refers to the super strains of canker in my post. Gordon’s full article is also posted on the Site, the extract is to save you wading thro it.

 

email:-

 

“Trichomoniasis - there is quite a range of strains, from the very mild to the very deadly. It has been well established that mild strains will protect against more pathogenic strains, which is why I have been reluctant to treat against the condition. My feeling is that I'd prefer to use the hopefully mild strains of the organism present in my birds to deal with any possible introduction of a pathogenic strain. My references, which go back many years, don't discuss the means by which the organism causes disease, but I'd suspect powerful enzymes or toxins at the root of the problem.

 

What do they consume? I don't know but again would suspect local nutrients such as glucose, perhaps even some bacteria. A lot of the answers might be gleaned from studies on the human reproductive trichomonad, as I am not aware of such studies in the organism in pigeons. For your information, I have attached an article that distils a lot of the information in my trichomonas file. “

 

Extract:-

 

“The subject of drug resistance by the canker organism to modern drugs is also of major current importance to us.  Almost 10 years ago, in 1990, Drs Lumeij and Zwijnenberg of Utrecht University, Holland, demonstrated the fact that canker organisms recovered from a large flock of pigeons in that country, were uniformly resistant to all of our commonly used modern drugs -- Emtryl, Ridzol, Spartrix and Flagyl.  On the basis of that information, it seems likely that canker organisms in many other untested flocks of pigeons in Holland and indeed throughout Europe, and other countries, could have been similarly resistant at that time, likely, as these researchers pointed out, because of the common practice among fanciers, of continually under-dosing birds with these drugs.  

On the subject of under-dosing, especially with Emtryl, I find in my travels in the USA and Canada, that the dosage of the 40% water-soluble Emtryl, as recommended by several pigeon supply houses in North America is far below that recommended for pigeons by the producer of the drug.  (At one time, this company sold small 3-gram packets of Emtryl, the exact dosage for one Imperial gallon - 4.55 litres).  The fact that Emtryl is being recommended today at much lower dosages could certainly contribute to the problem of drug resistance mentioned in the previous paragraph, and may be a developing problem with major far-reaching consequences for us.  I would remind fanciers that the correct dosage of Emtryl for pigeons, as recommended by the company, is 3 grams (or one level teaspoon) per imperial gallon (4.55 litres) of drinking water for 5-7 days.  For the smaller US gallon (4 litres), this is about 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for the same treatment period.  “

 

 

[Guest]

The point is Bruno that none of the anti treat brigade seem to be grasping here is that firstly half the treatments used are natural ie cider vinegar,garlic,pro biotics etc and secondly that although we do use drugs they are alternated to avoid resistance [ie for worms,canker and coxi] and thirdly that we probably use anti biotics alot less than those that profess to not treat as our birds don't get sick because they are treated!!

 

This is part of an article on drug resistance in pigeon canker organisms. It clearly shows 'rotation' of drugs and underdosing as chief means of creating resistance.

 

"a large flock of pigeons in that country, were uniformly resistant to all of our commonly used modern drugs -- Emtryl, Ridzol, Spartrix and Flagyl.  On the basis of that information, it seems likely that canker organisms in many other untested flocks of pigeons in Holland and indeed throughout Europe, and other countries, could have been similarly resistant at that time, likely, as these researchers pointed out, because of the common practice among fanciers, of continually under-dosing birds with these drugs. "  

 

 

I and others have absolutely no problem with natural products. With respect, it is the long term affects of routine and unnecessary use of antibiotics that users fail to grasp - or in at least one case, don't even care ..... [not you or Tammy wot is two cases  ;D ]

[Guest]

 

 

Can’t find the article that Craig Speight posted on supercanker. Will have a look in my own computer files for it. Meanwhile here is an email reply from Gordon Chalmers and part of his article which accompanied it, and refers to the super strains of canker in my post. Gordon’s full article is also posted on the Site, the extract is to save you wading thro it.

 

email:-

 

“Trichomoniasis - there is quite a range of strains, from the very mild to the very deadly. It has been well established that mild strains will protect against more pathogenic strains, which is why I have been reluctant to treat against the condition. My feeling is that I'd prefer to use the hopefully mild strains of the organism present in my birds to deal with any possible introduction of a pathogenic strain. My references, which go back many years, don't discuss the means by which the organism causes disease, but I'd suspect powerful enzymes or toxins at the root of the problem.

 

What do they consume? I don't know but again would suspect local nutrients such as glucose, perhaps even some bacteria. A lot of the answers might be gleaned from studies on the human reproductive trichomonad, as I am not aware of such studies in the organism in pigeons. For your information, I have attached an article that distils a lot of the information in my trichomonas file. “

 

Extract:-

 

“The subject of drug resistance by the canker organism to modern drugs is also of major current importance to us.  Almost 10 years ago, in 1990, Drs Lumeij and Zwijnenberg of Utrecht University, Holland, demonstrated the fact that canker organisms recovered from a large flock of pigeons in that country, were uniformly resistant to all of our commonly used modern drugs -- Emtryl, Ridzol, Spartrix and Flagyl.  On the basis of that information, it seems likely that canker organisms in many other untested flocks of pigeons in Holland and indeed throughout Europe, and other countries, could have been similarly resistant at that time, likely, as these researchers pointed out, because of the common practice among fanciers, of continually under-dosing birds with these drugs.  

On the subject of under-dosing, especially with Emtryl, I find in my travels in the USA and Canada, that the dosage of the 40% water-soluble Emtryl, as recommended by several pigeon supply houses in North America is far below that recommended for pigeons by the producer of the drug.  (At one time, this company sold small 3-gram packets of Emtryl, the exact dosage for one Imperial gallon - 4.55 litres).  The fact that Emtryl is being recommended today at much lower dosages could certainly contribute to the problem of drug resistance mentioned in the previous paragraph, and may be a developing problem with major far-reaching consequences for us.  I would remind fanciers that the correct dosage of Emtryl for pigeons, as recommended by the company, is 3 grams (or one level teaspoon) per imperial gallon (4.55 litres) of drinking water for 5-7 days.  For the smaller US gallon (4 litres), this is about 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for the same treatment period.  “

 

 

So based on the fact you thought routine treatment with drugs was wrong you now think we don't give them enough!!.Surely you would agree that since all pigeons carry canker it is necessary to keep the count down to an acceptable level in order to allow the birds to enjoy optimum health for maximum performance be it in showing or racing?.By alternating various products on the market it is possible to avoid resistance,and by incorporating products like strike and cocci tricho which are milder in between treatments,I actually only treat with serious canker drugs 2 or 3 times a year.

[Guest]

 

So based on the fact you thought routine treatment with drugs was wrong you now think we don't give them enough!!.Surely you would agree that since all pigeons carry canker it is necessary to keep the count down to an acceptable level in order to allow the birds to enjoy optimum health for maximum performance be it in showing or racing?.By alternating various products on the market it is possible to avoid resistance,and by incorporating products like strike and cocci tricho which are milder in between treatments,I actually only treat with serious canker drugs 2 or 3 times a year.

 

Chrissy, 'you' is Gordon Chalmers' - it is he, a trained vet who keeps and flies racing pigeons that is saying people who treat pigeons in this way are giving less than the manufacturer's recommended dose. He says that, not me, he's the expert, not me. He is reporting the findings of other experts who deal with these things every day and know their subject inside out, they also say that this is one of the main reasons for drug resistance.

 

Alternating brand names doesn't necessarly mean you are alternating the class of drug you are using. These products could contain different antibiotics but if they are the same class of drug, then they're the same and if canker or anything else is resistant to one of these antibiotics in that class, then its resistant to all of the drugs in that class. It's the drug the product contains that matters, not the brand name. You've commented before on me harping on about reading labels. Know exactly what's in the pack, only then can you say you know for sure what you are giving the birds.  And you can give a drug-resistant bug all the drugs you like, they won't make any difference to it, can't say the same for the bird tho.

 

 

The main canker thread with the resistant strains article posted by Craig is at:-

 

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1137449930/s-0/

[ALF]

YOU MUST BE NUTS NUTS AND MARE NUTS IF YOU USE ANTI BIOTICS ALL THE TIME WITH YOUR DOOS ;) ;)

[HOMER49]

Hi

Your birds in the racing period are only as healthy as your club mates birds they are in beside If you need to use anti bio tics during the resting period you really have a problem and this is when you have to eradicate the problem

                 USE A PLASTIC BAG

Cheers

Homer 49

[Guest Paulo]

Until I started doing the full showing calender,ie about 20 outings over an8 month period I had no health problems whatsoever,yet in the last 6 months I have had 2 outbreaks,1 respitory,1 possibly streptoccus,since the loft is immaculate and nothing else has changed management wise I know the birds must be picking things up at shows.I always believed antibiotics harmful to the immune system and that the only people who needed them had dirty over crowded lofts,yet I have had to use them twice in 6 months.It has been suggested to me that the only way to avoid future trouble is to incorporate antibiotics into the annual medication programme on a routine basis.This advice comes from a proffessional fancier and the programme would be worked out by him,I would like to know how many fanciers agree or dissagree or any suggestions,I know this is a contraversial subject but please be honest

 

Kevin Hurst used to and outlines his system in his book East to West however he does recommend certain ones and baytril is a big no no according to him

 

[Guest Paulo]

Also he doesn't treat during the close season just uses natural products such as garlic etc