lakeside lofts ni Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Yes ppl might over treat for this and that. But we are talking about the biggest killer in pigeons PARATYPHUS. Which ppl dont treat for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 thats why there is so much ybs losses ppl not treating. The pigeon dont have to show sickness to be sick i hear lots on here saying y treat when there not sick. (They will not show the sickness till they r under stress.) i treat 7 days with ALTABACTINE 2 DAYS PROBIOTIC THEN INJECT FOR PARAATYPHUS. Welcome to the site lakeside lofts ni. Whilst I agree on you on devastation Para can do I don’t vaccinate against it. Too many good fanciers that I know have gone down the vaccination route only to find their pigeons performance and general health suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 what about flight path as a preventive rather than injections Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 i do believe that parastop is not an antibiotic. i use it as a preventative 1s a month, but espensive have had no complaints up to now. Parastop contains norfloxacin which is an antibiotic. That info was originally posted by Dr Larry Lucas on the sticky 'paratyphoid, can it be stopped’ thread. I'm told Deweerdt doesn't show what the product contains on the label. That is irresponsible in my opinion, if you don't know what's in the product you don't have the key to finding out more about it. The Wikipedia article on norfloxacin talks of grave concerns on its use in humans, which led to manufacturers' warnings being issued in 2008 on musculoskeletal side effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfloxacin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest frank dooman Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Yes ppl might over treat for this and that. But we are talking about the biggest killer in pigeons PARATYPHUS. Which ppl dont treat for. i think that might be a backlash to the enforced vac in the eightys most didnt believe it was nec . cant blame some for bieng cautious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gk lofts Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 I use it to prevent it but all birds looked ill for a day i now use a cheaper one ment for chickens excactly the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter4pm Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 http://pigeonclinics.com/default.asp?ContentId=1745&LanguageId=44&MainProductId=99&st=1&pt=Paratyphoid+vaccine This is the vaccine ive got and il be treating the birds shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 why would anyone want to use antibiotics !!! unless they needed to I believe the theory behind vaccination is that if the disease against which you are treating is present when you vaccinate then the vaccine is ineffective and the body cannot build the antibodies against that disease. Pmv is easy to spot and there is no treatment so we simply vaccinate. Paratyphoid/ Salmonella can lie hidden and we don't know it's there so treatment with an antibiotic removes it and allows the vaccine to do it's job. I have never done this but I am simply quoting what I have read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmsidelofts Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 i;ve never used either but i beleive its the same, once given clear for the season. Its the course of antibiotics that cures the problem and then the parastop or colombovac prevent it being caught again. Sorry mate thats not true, Parastop is an antibiotic and will only clear it up, it will return back to the bird if it is exposed to salmonella again. The only way to stop it is by vaccination. I wouldnt recommend constant use of parastop as with any antibiotic it destroys good bacteria as well as bad and birds will be immune to it if over used. Prevention is always better than a cure, you dont want to catch salmonella its quite ruthless. jas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDCHEQHEN Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Sorry mate thats not true, Parastop is an antibiotic and will only clear it up, it will return back to the bird if it is exposed to salmonella again. The only way to stop it is by vaccination. I wouldnt recommend constant use of parastop as with any antibiotic it destroys good bacteria as well as bad and birds will be immune to it if over used. Prevention is always better than a cure, you dont want to catch salmonella its quite ruthless. jas Vaccination doesn't stop the birds from getting the disease and I was told that by someone who vaccinated for years, as he put it 'they don't get it as bad' I don't vaccinate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmsidelofts Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Vaccination doesn't stop the birds from getting the disease and I was told that by someone who vaccinated for years, as he put it 'they don't get it as bad' I don't vaccinate Sorry mate you facts are wrong thats what the term vaccination means it prevents the bird catching it, if you dont treat beforehand and already have the disease present the vaccination isnt as effective. I have also used the vaccine for a few years and would never not vaccinate. Once you have had it im sure you would change your views on it. jas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDCHEQHEN Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Sorry mate you facts are wrong thats what the term vaccination means it prevents the bird catching it, if you dont treat beforehand and already have the disease present the vaccination isnt as effective. I have also used the vaccine for a few years and would never not vaccinate. Once you have had it im sure you would change your views on it. jas. My facts aren't wrong (evil) He's a member in my club !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmsidelofts Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 My facts aren't wrong (evil) He's a member in my club !! Your club member is a vet then is he. Just because someone tells you something doesnt mean they are right unless they are qualified to tell you that. My advice comes from 2 of the top pigeon vets in the uk who i personally deal with, and they are the only people im prepared to take advice from as i trust them fully in the advice they give. and the facts that i have a lot of knowledge on pigeon health and know about the devastation that salmonella brings i an knowledgeable to make that call for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted December 6, 2009 Report Share Posted December 6, 2009 I believe the theory behind vaccination is that if the disease against which you are treating is present when you vaccinate then the vaccine is ineffective and the body cannot build the antibodies against that disease. Pmv is easy to spot and there is no treatment so we simply vaccinate. Paratyphoid/ Salmonella can lie hidden and we don't know it's there so treatment with an antibiotic removes it and allows the vaccine to do it's job. I have never done this but I am simply quoting what I have read. I've put forward a similar argument which differs slightly from your own, again, based on what I have read on and off the forum; The way the body fights disease is (eventually) to form antibodies against it. Each antibody only fights one type of invader. Vaccination involves deliberately infecting the body (with a safe form of the disease) the aim being to stimulate the body to quickly form antibodies against that invader. I think you will also agree that people and animals are normally vaccinated against a disease that they have never had. If the bird has already met Salmonella / paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies it needs to fight it. So advice to administer an antibiotic first 'to clear out infection' before vaccination just doesn't make sense, as the antibodies for fighting salmonella / paratyphoid would already be present, and these would prevent the vaccine taking. If you read the paramyxo leaflet 'maternal antibodies' you will see the same principle. The hen passes on antibodies against paramyxo to her offspring via the egg. If you try and jag her youngster too young [under 3 weeks old, colombovac, under 5 weeks old, Nobilis] the maternal antibodies prevent the paramyxo vaccine working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmsidelofts Posted December 6, 2009 Report Share Posted December 6, 2009 I've put forward a similar argument which differs slightly from your own, again, based on what I have read on and off the forum; The way the body fights disease is (eventually) to form antibodies against it. Each antibody only fights one type of invader. Vaccination involves deliberately infecting the body (with a safe form of the disease) the aim being to stimulate the body to quickly form antibodies against that invader. I think you will also agree that people and animals are normally vaccinated against a disease that they have never had. If the bird has already met Salmonella / paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies it needs to fight it. So advice to administer an antibiotic first 'to clear out infection' before vaccination just doesn't make sense, as the antibodies for fighting salmonella / paratyphoid would already be present, and these would prevent the vaccine taking. If you read the paramyxo leaflet 'maternal antibodies' you will see the same principle. The hen passes on antibodies against paramyxo to her offspring via the egg. If you try and jag her youngster too young [under 3 weeks colombovac, under 5 weeks old, Nobilis, the maternal antibodies prevent the paramyxo vaccine working. The problem with salmonella is you have birds which are carriers of the disease but never show any symptoms. but what they do is shed the disease regularly within the loft causing serious disease to those they infect. Im not totally sure why the carriers are not infected by it, my guess would be that its the bacterias way of spreading itself. If it killed everything it came into contact with it would soon not be able to spread itself anymore. Birds like all animals do get some of its own natural immunity to diseases but cant tackle some of them themselves. Think about it this way. In humans we have a fairly complex immune system which is capable of keeping us alive, but there are 100's of disease that we cant tackle by ourselves and without vaccination we die, Polio, MMR, TB, Hepatitis are just some of the disease we cant cope with on our own, we do have some natural immunity if we are unfortunate to have caught them and get over it but without vaccination millions of people would die. Salmonella is no different. Bare in mind also if your birds do get infected with salmonella then we as fanciers are at a very high risk of contraction of it from the birds, the same as rat are the main carriers of salmonella in the world and a high level of transmission to pigeons come from rats . Unlike other forms of disease salmonella in pigeons can be transmitted to humans, so just bare that in mind everytime you clean out you lofts and thats fact. jas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted December 6, 2009 Report Share Posted December 6, 2009 Vaccination doesn't stop the birds from getting the disease and I was told that by someone who vaccinated for years, as he put it 'they don't get it as bad' I agree that vaccination doesn't stop the birds from getting the disease, but I would qualify that by adding 'in certain circumstances'. You need look no further than the PMV vaccines' leaflets. Nobilis spells it out clearest : Further information:- 'under extreme disease pressure, fully immune birds may succumb to disease. Therefore successful vaccination may not give full protection in the face of disease challenge.' Other factors include the overall health of the bird at time it meets the disease. If its already poorly with one or a number of illnesses, it may not be able to fight off yet another attacking it at the same time. Another good reason for always isolating a suspect pigeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyW Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I think you will find that any vaccine doesnt give immunity, but gives a small dose of whatever you are vaccinating against this enables the hosts antibodies to fight the infection so as to strengthen the hosts immune system to these foreign bodies and therefore if the host should be exposed to this again the antibodies are better equiped to deal with problem ,although the host will still get the sickness but not in such a severe form. So my guess would be that a good immune system & vaccination go hand in hand JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strapper Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 those that are against treating for paratyhoid...if you have not experienced it then think of it this way... have you witnessed or seen the state of birds when they have full blown paramixo? summut you wouldnt want to have in your loft..so you vaccinate each year and hope you dont have it..........well take the same thoughts because if your expensive racebirds get it that may well mean the end of their racing!...for good!...thats if it catches it in the joint of the wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjc Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Sorry mate you facts are wrong thats what the term vaccination means it prevents the bird catching it, if you dont treat beforehand and already have the disease present the vaccination isnt as effective. I have also used the vaccine for a few years and would never not vaccinate. Once you have had it im sure you would change your views on it. jas. How many people have the flu vaccine and still get mild flu!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IB Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 How many people have the flu vaccine and still get mild flu!! I think that's probably why it was mild? Body was pre-prepared for it, having seen it before, recognised it instantly, and already had the formula for the right antibody to combat it. The infection had no opportunity or time to develop into full-blown flu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 The Paratyphus vaccine will not stop birds geting Paratyphus and that is a scientific fact. Five inactivated and one attenuated vaccine produced for the prevention of salmonellosis in pigeons were compared in an experimental challenge model. The birds were vaccinated according to the recommendations of the manufacturers and they were infected by gavage with a Salmonella typhimurium (var copenhagen) pigeon strain. The challenged control animals showed severe weight loss, excessive water intake over a prolonged period, and excreted large numbers of salmonellae. None of the vaccines fully protected the pigeons, and only an inactivated oil adjuvant vaccine was able to reduce the severity of the clinical signs significantly. Mortality was low and tended to increase with the severity of the clinical signs. These results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons. Nevertheless, the oil adjuvant vaccine may help in the effective cleaning of lofts after an outbreak of salmonellosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigda Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 ive been told that useing an vacine for para or salmanela can lead to infertilaty in some cases weather that is true im not sure to not to do them, can also lead to a crap year as this is getting out of hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gulkie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 where do you get from sorry did,nt get back to u sooner .from Paul smith at regency lofts 01279 812005 mobil 07860568216 . my system give for 10 days prior to pairing up and once a month for 2 days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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