Birds lame after vaccination for Paratyphoid

[pearse1888]

i had paratyphoid last year and baytril and parastop in my opinion doesnt cure them .. they might look the part after getting treated but will always be carriers therefore the youngters will have it and so on .. some pigeons show the symptoms swollen joints and twisting kneck but some only show it in times of stress e.g racing.. mines were coming back late and sitting like hedgehogs on the roof .. got my droppings tested and found it was para .. i culled all last years youngsters and i done my stock and old racers for paratyphoid this year and they looked down for a few days but they were ok after a few days .. if they dont come round after 10 to 14 days they could well be carriers .. the jag is very harsh on them i dont think i would vaccinate again unless i had an outbreak of it .. if the birds have been given cider vinegar this also can give them a bad reaction when injected .. !!

[Guest bigda]

 

Hi Billy

The Four Seasons 1964 great song and every fancier should read the book ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Homer 49

 

by your pal old hand  ;D ;D]

 

 

[W.D.]

Thanks everyone for the feed back on this, it's always good to hear what the members on here think and know.

[Guest IB]

i had paratyphoid last year and baytril and parastop in my opinion doesnt cure them .. they might look the part after getting treated but will always be carriers therefore the youngters will have it and so on .. some pigeons show the symptoms swollen joints and twisting kneck but some only show it in times of stress e.g racing.. mines were coming back late and sitting like hedgehogs on the roof .. got my droppings tested and found it was para .. i culled all last years youngsters and i done my stock and old racers for paratyphoid this year and they looked down for a few days but they were ok after a few days .. if they dont come round after 10 to 14 days they could well be carriers .. the jag is very harsh on them i dont think i would vaccinate again unless i had an outbreak of it .. if the birds have been given cider vinegar this also can give them a bad reaction when injected .. !!

 

I'd posted up on that one in another thread. We have been told 'acidifying the drinking water' will help stop the likes of salmonella infecting the birds. It does the damned opposite. It helps e coli and salmonella by pre-preparing them to meet the highly acidic 'stomach' environment, and helps them survive it to invade the birds intestines..

[Guest Owen]

IB

I will talk to you about the idea of using live vaccines as being detrimental. I think you are right incidentally.

Cider vinegar is not all about acidifying the gut although there is an element of that. It is a rich source of both vitamins and especially minerals. I think it should be used in very low doses but very regularly. Bear in mind that pigeons need a variety of grits and dietry clay fresh every day. So you must take the affects of these things into your thinking when you deal with the subject.

I have been looking into the effects of vaccination and the use of distinfectants. And things are not as we all thought. Not even in the field of human medicine. I will look forward to our debate.

[Guest Jargre-]

 

wrong a antibiotic works by suppresing the immune system thus making them more susceptable to infections whilst clearing the infection !!!!

Give me a break will you, while the anti-biotic is working on the bacteria it is targeting the white T Cells that ARE the IMMUNE SYSTEM get the chance to recover.  Doh!   :-/

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

Give me a break will you, while the anti-biotic is working on the bacteria it is targeting the white T Cells that ARE the IMMUNE SYSTEM get the chance to recover.  Doh!   :-/

 

 

you were the first to say red hen was wrong , the antibiotics supress the immune system and deal with the virus simple and if you take the time it tells you on the link i provided think you own red an appologie

[Guest Jargre-]

I have said a number of times since Vic’s  Paratyphoid thread went up in 2008, that this practice of antibiotic treatment followed by live vaccine did not make sense as it went against the flow of what the Animal Health Authorities and Pharmaceutical Companies like Beyer (makers of Baytril) recommended throughout the EU.

 

I also said that it probably does the very opposite on the pigeons than you intended. I’m still working on this but I can give two pieces of  information that should at least sound a warning in fanciers’ minds, and call a halt to this practice pending further information.

 

(1) From the Institute of Animal Health website:-

 

There is increasing evidence that vaccination using live attenuated vaccines may select more virulent pathogens.

 

http://www.iah.ac.uk/ISPG/AID.shtml

 

In other words using live vaccine can create more deadly Salmonella.

 

(2) From a research paper. They used a different antibiotic but the results were just as expected. Yes, less shedding of salmonella in droppings. But more infections in the major organs. They created Salmonella carriers.

 

Induction of the Carrier State in Pigeons Infected with Salmonella enterica Subspecies enterica Serovar Typhimurium PT99 by Treatment with Florfenicol:

 

Introduction

Although vaccination is a valuable part of a control program, it does not eliminate the possibility of a clinical infection in a pigeon aviary but mainly reduces clinical symptoms and mortality (12, 15). Antimicrobial treatment is often used as an aid to control salmonellosis in the aviary. However, Salmonella bacteria may persist inside pigeon macrophages, a niche in which these microorganisms are well protected from most antimicrobial agents (11). It has been suggested previously, but not clearly proven, that antimicrobial treatment may promote the carrier state (16)

 

Results

The predicted therapeutic failure of the oral florfenicol treatment of pigeons after inoculation with Salmonella serovar Typhimurium was reflected in the creation of Salmonella carriers (6 of the 10 animals) that did not shed the bacteria in detectable numbers in the feces but in which high numbers of Salmonella bacteria persisted in the tissues. Actually, the internal organs of the florfenicol-treated pigeons exhibited higher Salmonella burdens than those of the untreated ones. This result is in agreement with the finding that the concentrations of florfenicol in plasma were not high enough to inhibit intracellular persistency inside macrophages. Such pigeons thus would pose a serious health threat to previously unexposed animals. This finding supports the hypothesis that the antimicrobial treatment of animals for Salmonella infection may promote the Salmonella carrier state, which would be of special importance for food-producing animals such as poultry and pigs.

 

Despite the persistency of Salmonella in high numbers in the pigeon tissues, oral florfenicol treatment of pigeons experimentally inoculated with Salmonella serovar Typhimurium markedly reduced fecal shedding and improved the fecal consistency. This finding suggests that the clinical recovery of pigeons from paratyphoid due to antimicrobial treatment is not necessarily correlated with decreases of the Salmonella loads in the internal organs.

 

In conclusion, the oral application of florfenicol for the treatment of paratyphoid in pigeons results in lower fecal shedding and less severe clinical symptoms than those in untreated animals but contributes to the development of carrier animals through sub-MIC concentrations in plasma that do not inhibit intracellular persistency.

 

I've attached the full paper [PDF]

 

Informative post but you'd have to ask if a birds immune system which uses a similar lymphatic system as humans why is it that illness of birds are treated effectively by penicillin based medicines?   What is different with birds immunity is described here.. http://www.wingwise.com/immune.htm  

 

Good post IB.  

 

[Guest Jargre-]

 

you were the first to say red hen was wrong , the antibiotics supress the immune system and deal with the virus simple and if you take the time it tells you on the link i provided think you own red an appologie

You need to get your facts right and read what is written not what you think is written Mark.  I posted ''No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most"...  Anit-biotics given pre-jab would give ANY invading bacteria and the like a good hiding, thus leaving the immune system FREE to build, although if you read the correct text you'll find that no matter what anti-biotic the immune system is left to finish off the job.  

 

So just for you Mark, I'll repeat, the anti-biotics while attacking a specific bacteria replace the job of the immune system, they do  NOT attack it or suppress it if there is an infection in the system of the treated, this indirectly allows the T Cells or the 'immune system' of the bird to take a back seat thus gaining strength, although as said the immune system still has the task of finishing the job.  You need to get access to better websites.    I owe no apology as I was not wrong nor did I discredit red, I merely disagreed with him and my facts from the BMJ tell me I'm correct.  

[OLDYELLOW]

You need to get your facts right and read what is written not what you think is written Mark.  I posted ''No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most"...  Anit-biotics given pre-jab would give ANY invading bacteria and the like a good hiding, thus leaving the immune system FREE to build, although if you read the correct text you'll find that no matter what anti-biotic the immune system is left to finish off the job.  

 

So just for you Mark, I'll repeat, the anti-biotics while attacking a specific bacteria replace the job of the immune system, they do  NOT attack it or suppress it if there is an infection in the system of the treated, this indirectly allows the T Cells or the 'immune system' of the bird to take a back seat thus gaining strength, although as said the immune system still has the task of finishing the job.  You need to get access to better websites.    I owe no apology as I was not wrong nor did I discredit red, I merely disagreed with him and my facts from the BMJ tell me I'm correct.  

 

Oh, let's not forget that we should also understand the difference between a drug and an antibiotic. Yes, yes, I can already hear the smart remarks. Well, an antibiotic is by most considered a drug, but a drug is not necessarily an antibiotic! An antibiotic works by suppressing the immune system, a drug per se does not affect the immune system at all. So you see there is a real difference. There are hundreds of fanciers misusing antibiotics like Baytril. They attempt to use this 3rd generation antibiotic as a performance enhancer. That is, you use the product, it suppresses the immune system, then as the birds come off it there is a slingshot effect as the immune system seems to go beyond the norm, and bingo, super health. Or is it? No, actually a sure-fire ticket to disaster! Do not use these mega antibiotics unless you have done adequate testing with your avian vet! In most cases less extreme older antibiotics will more than serve your pigeons' health needs.BMJ british medical journal birds have an entirely different system to humans  :-/

 

 

[Guest bigda]

 

;D :X :X :X ;D can think of another name for B.M.J.  

 

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

you were the first to say red hen was wrong , the antibiotics supress the immune system and deal with the virus simple and if you take the time it tells you on the link i provided think you own red an appologie

 

But what you also have to remember is you have just killed all the bacteria good and bad, antibiotics are not that selective in what it kills, what you have then is an in-balance in the immune system which then allows other things like virus's to take hold, so your first priority should be to replace the good bacteria with a course of probiotics. remember also that no antibiotic will fight a virus it will only fight bacteria.

 

[OLDYELLOW]

 

But what you also have to remember is you have just killed all the bacteria good and bad, antibiotics are not that selective in what it kills, what you have then is an in-balance in the immune system which then allows other things like virus's to take hold, so your first priority should be to replace the good bacteria with a course of probiotics. remember also that no antibiotic will fight a virus it will only fight bacteria.

 

that i agree with using antibiotics when unnessasary is totaly wrong

 

Although there are a number of different types of antibiotic they all work in one of two ways:

A bactericidal antibiotic kills the bacteria. Penicillin is a bactericidal. A bactericidal usually either interferes with the formation of the bacterium's cell wall or its cell contents.

 

A bacteriostatic stops bacteria from multiplying.

 

 

 

Antibiotics are defined as any chemotherapeutic substance designed to kill or hinder the growth of microscopic organisms. Doctors are taught to prescribe antibiotics when they suspect that a particular condition is being caused by a bacterial pathogen. Unfortunately, many doctors also prescribe antibiotics for conditions that caused by known viral pathogens, such the cold or bronchitis.

 

This is unfortunate not simply because of the expense involved or the possibly unpleasant side effects, but because it may wind up harming the immune system. The human immune system is actually a collection of defensive mechanisms against disease, and includes certain tissues, organs, cells, and enzymes. These elements work together to create a disease fighting system more powerful than anything medicine has yet to devise. Even the biggest breakthrough in fighting viruses in medical history, the vaccine, is simply a way to help the natural immune system do its job better.

 

Antibiotics are actually designed to help the immune system do its job, and it may even do that in the short term, but in the long term antibiotics actually suppress the immune system.

 

Firstly, medical antibiotics do not make the immune system stronger, they simply act a replacement for one of its functions: killing harmful bacteria. The immune system functions just like an organ or a muscle. When it is not put to use, it atrophies. So when an introduced agent does one its jobs, the immune system performs that job poorly once the agent leaves the body. This is why someone who takes antibiotics to cure a bacteria based disease may catch the same disease, only with more severe symptoms, at a later time.

 

Antibiotics also do not make the distinction between harmful bacteria and helpful bacteria and cells. They "throw the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak. Certain strains of bacteria in the digestive tract are essential to digest food and produce healthy vitamins. When these bacteria are killed off, it may lead to vitamin loss, diarrhea, parasitic infection, and the development of allergies.

 

Antibiotics, and in particular the over prescription of antibiotics, can create stronger strains of bacteria that even a healthy immune system is not prepared to fight. Throughout the history of biology, the evolution of bacteria, viruses, and hosts have more or less been in harmony. Every time a bacterium or virus became slowly stronger, immune systems have reacted by becoming stronger as well.

 

The introduction of antibiotics through a bit of a monkey wrench into this. As bacteria were killed much more rapidly, they evolved more quickly than the human immune system. This leads to "superbugs," such as the staph bacterium MRSA, which is powerful it can turn deadly within just days.

 

As the little disputed harms of over prescribing ineffective antibiotics become more apparent, and information becomes more widespread, more and more doctors are becoming less willing to dole out antibiotic prescriptions as thoughtlessly as they used to. This is fortunate, as patients might find benefit in simply taking supplements to boost their immune system to fight bacteria and viruses, such as true colloidal silver

[Guest bigda]

all sick birds are separated as like humans are in the hospital or under the doc  you are given a course of tablets,   that kill  bacteria,  some of  and cure the  cause,  is that not right,  no extra  probotics  do you get.   also there is acids in the stomach   and there are bacteria that live in that acid  that only pacific drugs will deal with it  helicobacter being one ;D

[REDCHEQHEN]

You need to get your facts right and read what is written not what you think is written Mark.  I posted ''No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most"...  Anit-biotics given pre-jab would give ANY invading bacteria and the like a good hiding, thus leaving the immune system FREE to build, although if you read the correct text you'll find that no matter what anti-biotic the immune system is left to finish off the job.  

 

So just for you Mark, I'll repeat, the anti-biotics while attacking a specific bacteria replace the job of the immune system, they do  NOT attack it or suppress it if there is an infection in the system of the treated, this indirectly allows the T Cells or the 'immune system' of the bird to take a back seat thus gaining strength, although as said the immune system still has the task of finishing the job.  You need to get access to better websites.    I owe no apology as I was not wrong nor did I discredit red, I merely disagreed with him and my facts from the BMJ tell me I'm correct.  

 

You only owe me an apology for this Jargre

 

(shrug)(shrug)(dizzy)(worried)

 

I'm a 'her' - hence I'm a redcheqHEN (evil)

[Guest peter4pm]

After reading alot of the information in this thread ...im seriously thinking of just leaving my birds as they are ...and not vaccinating them for paratyphiod...sounds as if it can do more damage than good in some cases

The only reason i was going to treat them this year was because i had a heavy bout of it last year and it wiped out around 40 of my birds ...it was relentless ...when i thought the desease  was gone ..it came back...antibiotics made matters worse for me....i used a substance called FURAL ....after the treatment ...more of my birds were looking unwell ...limping around , wing joints swollen , heavy wet yellow droppings ...i was at my wits end with it i can tell you....

 

But anyway ...the last thing i need is to vaccinate them ...and some of them fall ill ...dont think i could take the heartache again of lossing more birds.

 

Peter

[Guest Owen]

Normally vaccination would be the way to control a disease like Salmonella. But unfortunatly the vaccines we require do not exist. Apparently, according to a top Avian Vet, the proper way to vaccinate would be to islote the bacteria responsible and create the vaccine from it. We have a situation where I am certain the the live vaccines are not specific to the disease we are trying to deal with. The result is that we are making the situation worse, not better. I have been reading the posts on this subject but I see nothing that takes us forward to dealing with this disease. The recommended procedure has been to use Baytril or Amoxicillin for at least ten days to kill the bacteria in the birds and then after a short period of muti vits and probiotic vaccinate. I can see several possible problems with this. An important one is that we are asking the birds to drink medicated water at a time when they do not drink much at all. I would be willing to bet that a lot of them do not get the medication, before we start. Apparently the Begiums and Dutch clear the bird's systems by using the antibiotic treatment but do not follow up with the vaccination. I can see why they do that, because they think the birds are clear and are unlikely to be recontaminated. I have to admit I am confused as to what practical steps I can take. So I decided to treat the birds with Amoxicillin for 14 days and followed it up with a dead vaccine. I have had no side effects and the birds look wonderful.

My problem is that I have no idea as to what level of imunity the birds have built up through the vaccination.

By the way, I know it is good to understand how drugs and medication works, but we are looking for a method of protecting our birds from a nasty disease. In my opinion it is time the RPRA did their job and called in some expertise and helped us get through this. We can discuss the technicalities of this all day without actually coming up with solutions. And it is solutions we need. However, I think that this Forum is coming into it's own by enabling us to have a discussion like this.  

[DUBLINFLYER]

i thought it would have been to cold to vacinate, didnt think it was recommened in cold weather, hope they come round for ye

[Craig05]

Just a thought and back to the original post...  which part of the birds body did you inject?  could you not have done some nerve damage  to the 3 birds which has caused them to go lame?  its just a thought based on what my misses (Orthapedic Surgen) said while she was vaccinating my bird last season.  i have seen lots of guys inject at the lower part of the neck, just above the wings, and according to the misses, propably the most dangerous place to put a needle.  any thoughts welcome, as i said, just mentioning what the boss said

[lightning fast]

Craig I have also seen some bad injecting , I think yours misses have a good point there, the other thing I have seen is if a bird has deep routed problem this may bring it up

[Guest IB]

There may be an alternative therapy, but I am still in very early days of looking at it. Basically, our Pigeon Vets have not kept us up to date with the latest developments in disease identification, phage-typing, and there is a clue in there on how the infection could be treated.

 

Contrary to what we were led to believe, there is not one , but around 40 strains of salmonella which specifically infect pigeons, they are divided into 2 groups, phage-types DT2 and DT99. These DT numbers are bacteriophages, a type of virus that attacks and kills only bacteria, and only certain types, without harming other body cells. At the moment, in Britian, they appear to be used only to identify the strain of bacteria in the infection, through determining which phage kills most of that particular strain of bacteria .. by the number of phage plaques, which are clear spaces in a 'lawn' of specific bacteria. Think about your grass lawn at home, and dirty great bare patches in it - the bare patches are the dead bacteria.

 

I do not know the names of these phages, or which company produces them, or the legality of phage therapy in Britain, or who would prescribe or sell them. I intend contacting Scottish Salmonella Reference Laboratory for answers to these questions, under a Freedom of Information enquiry, but still to get the correct contact number for it. I've a similar second enquiry still outstanding with DEFRA.

 

I've put a video up on another thread that tells you more about phages, it runs for 50 minutes, but well worth watching.

 

http://forum.pigeonbasics.com/m-1262991732/

 

[OLDYELLOW]

There may be an alternative therapy, but I am still in very early days of looking at it. Basically, our Pigeon Vets have not kept us up to date with the latest developments in disease identification, phage-typing, and there is a clue in there on how the infection could be treated.

 

Contrary to what we were led to believe, there is not one , but around 40 strains of salmonella which specifically infect pigeons, they are divided into 2 groups, phage-types DT2 and DT99. These DT numbers are bacteriophages, a type of virus that attacks and kills only bacteria, and only certain types, without harming other body cells. At the moment, in Britian, they appear to be used only to identify the strain of bacteria in the infection, through determining which phage kills most of that particular strain of bacteria .. by the number of phage plaques, which are clear spaces in a 'lawn' of specific bacteria. Think about your grass lawn at home, and dirty great bare patches in it - the bare patches are the dead bacteria.

 

I do not know the names of these phages, or which company produces them, or the legality of phage therapy in Britain, or who would prescribe or sell them. I intend contacting Scottish Salmonella Reference Laboratory for answers to these questions, under a Freedom of Information enquiry, but still to get the correct contact number for it. I've a similar second enquiry still outstanding with DEFRA.

 

I've put a video up on another thread that tells you more about phages, it runs for 50 minutes, but well worth watching.

 

http://forum.pigeonbasics.com/m-1262991732/

 

Good post

[DOVEScot]

After reading alot of the information in this thread ...im seriously thinking of just leaving my birds as they are ...and not vaccinating them for paratyphiod...sounds as if it can do more damage than good in some cases

The only reason i was going to treat them this year was because i had a heavy bout of it last year and it wiped out around 40 of my birds ...it was relentless ...when i thought the desease  was gone ..it came back...antibiotics made matters worse for me....i used a substance called FURAL ....after the treatment ...more of my birds were looking unwell ...limping around , wing joints swollen , heavy wet yellow droppings ...i was at my wits end with it i can tell you....

 

But anyway ...the last thing i need is to vaccinate them ...and some of them fall ill ...dont think i could take the heartache again of lossing more birds.

 

Peter

 

Peter you have to vaccinate them if you intend racing them and i heard they are also bringing it in at show classes as well. I think it is better as you are helping to protect them from cross infection from other peoples birds

[PIGEON_MAN]

 

Peter you have to vaccinate them if you intend racing them and i heard they are also bringing it in at show classes as well. I think it is better as you are helping to protect them from cross infection from other peoples birds

 

It is only for paramyxo that you have to vacinate for in the RPRA  rules not paratyphoid.

[DOVEScot]

 

It is only for paramyxo that you have to vacinate for in the RPRA  rules not paratyphoid.

 

I know, I was only replying to Peter as I thought he meant he was not going to vaccinate at all :B :B :B