parastop

[BLACK W F]

 

y try and fix summit thats not broken ???????????????????????????????????

 

maybe  just got spare cash  burning a hole in his pocket ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[REDCHEQHEN]

 

Indication: For active immunisation by racing pigeons against (symptoms caused) by Salmonella

 

So not against Sammonella but only symptoms caused

 

Makes you wonder why it is only for export?

 

(and it is not approved in the UK...)

[Guest j.bamling]

 

Indication: For active immunisation by racing pigeons against (symptoms caused) by Salmonella

 

So not against Sammonella but only symptoms caused

 

taken from another website this Top belguim racing family & Top vetenarian is in agreement with vaccinating for para as is another 3-4 what i can name so that will do for me !!

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I hate the Vaccs like most fanciers but i could not see anything happening to the Pigeons. This goes for Paratyphoid as well. After talking to several Vets, for our own peace of mind we Vaccinated for it. This was done under the Guidance of Raf Herbots.who is in agreement with the vaccine. We did the Young Birds and the Breeders with No ill effects at all it all went smoothly.

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So we can all put things on here saying some are for this and some are against,,

you do what you think is best at the time

[alex young]

 

thats up to you if you want to blind treat but in my opinion you only want to give antibiotics if you have trouble not blind treating on the off chance you have something

You go to the doctors and say to him i think i have something does the doctor go and blind treat you with antibiotics i dont think so

but if thats what you want to do its upto you All roads lead to Rome as they say  

 

I respect your views, in the past I have gone down the expensive road of visiting the vets and on several occasions been given broad spectrum anti-biotics while awaiting test results. I now prefer to have a planned health programme which keeps their use to a minimum, but as you say all roads lead to Rome. atb.

[Guest frank dooman]

 

I respect your views, in the past I have gone down the expensive road of visiting the vets and on several occasions been given broad spectrum anti-biotics while awaiting test results. I now prefer to have a planned health programme which keeps their use to a minimum, but as you say all roads lead to Rome. atb.

 

at last someone else with the same views as me its a short season dont want it to go up in smoke just at the wrong time well said so iam not the only one who will admit it the sad fact is there are lots who do the same but wont admit it

[holmsidelofts]

I spoke with chevita who make the live vaccine for salmonella yesterday and this is there response to the link that pigeonscout posted:

 

Dear Mr. Edwards,

 

We thank you for your message and the information on discussions

regarding vaccination against salmonellosis in pigeons.

 

Our vaccine CHEVIVAC-S was introduced to the market in 1996.

Therefor, it was certainly not considered in the study published in

1991.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Georg Paulus

CHEVITA GmbH

Export Department

 

So as you can see you cant base that article on what is now available I have done the same with columbovac and will post there response once i get a reply from them.

 

 

 

 

[holmsidelofts]

Also i just emailed the university in holland where this study took place and will update you on the response i get once it comes.

 

 

[Guest Owen]

Adam, I will cut to the chase. As you are just starting up with birds from all over the place, you will need to do something to ensure that you do not bring something nasty into your loft. My opinion is, that you should avoid Parastop and pick a point in time where you know you will have stopped bring in any more birds, treat with Baytril for ten days and then you can decide if you want to vaccinate or not.

In the mean time keep a keen eye on the Stock Birds you have so that you can gauge the sort of condition they are in while they are under the pressure of rearing youngsters. Also look at the hatchability of the eggs you have and the health and growth rate of the youngsters. Especially look for dead in shell and under sized youngsters. All these things will help you to form an opinion of whether or not you could have a problem in the loft. You told me that your older youngsters are up on the wing and flying. That being the case, I doubt if there is much wrong with them.

I hope this helps

Owen

[adam owen]

yes owen thank you

[holmsidelofts]

just another update on the chevita chevivac s vaccine regard its licensed use in the uk.

this came direct from chevita themselves:

 

Dear Jason,

 

CHEVIVAC-S is licensed in Germany. It has been imported to the U.K.

by veterinary practitioners on the basis of Special Import

Certificates granted by the competent U.K. Authorities.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Georg Paulus

 

So that answers that argument regarding the vaccine being sold in the uk. As long as it comes from a vet its fine to use and not illegal in the uk.

 

Jas.

 

[Guest Owen]

Well done Jas. You have done a darned good job there. At last we are rid of the speculation and have some concrete facts to work with.

All the best

Owen

[pigeonscout]

I spoke with chevita who make the live vaccine for salmonella yesterday and this is there response to the link that pigeonscout posted:

 

Dear Mr. Edwards,

 

We thank you for your message and the information on discussions

regarding vaccination against salmonellosis in pigeons.

 

Our vaccine CHEVIVAC-S was introduced to the market in 1996.

Therefor, it was certainly not considered in the study published in

1991.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Georg Paulus

CHEVITA GmbH

Export Department

 

So as you can see you cant base that article on what is now available I have done the same with columbovac and will post there response once i get a reply from them.

 

 

 

 

Ask them what I ask, Will their vaccine prevent  your birds from getting paratyphoid? if so can they forward you the information contained in the study carried out that confirms their vaccine stops pigeon form getting paratyphoid this.

[Guest bakes]

I spoke with chevita who make the live vaccine for salmonella yesterday and this is there response to the link that pigeonscout posted:

 

Dear Mr. Edwards,

 

We thank you for your message and the information on discussions

regarding vaccination against salmonellosis in pigeons.

 

Our vaccine CHEVIVAC-S was introduced to the market in 1996.

Therefor, it was certainly not considered in the study published in

1991.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Georg Paulus

CHEVITA GmbH

Export Department

 

So as you can see you cant base that article on what is now available I have done the same with columbovac and will post there response once i get a reply from them.

 

 

 

 

columbovac is vaccine for paramixo mate as thats what the club sec and another member used on my oldbirds so i can race them this season didnt no it was for paratyfoid/sallmenella as well

 

all the best

 

 

[Guest Owen]

Jas, with reference to pigeonscout, I think you should go to this man's loft and do it all for him.   :) I reckon that you have done a lot of work and it could be time for out mutual friend to do a bit for himself.

I would not mind if we were part of a positive discussion, but this is looking very much like an exercise in narking. I think that I am like a lot of others, in that, I am keen to aquire more up to date information. And I will gladly give credit to those who provide it. But this fellow is just being awkward. Or perhaps he likes to show off.

[fred smyth]

Jas, with reference to pigeonscout, I think you should go to this man's loft and do it all for him.   :) I reckon that you have done a lot of work and it could be time for out mutual friend to do a bit for himself.

I would not mind if we were part of a positive discussion, but this is looking very much like an exercise in narking. I think that I am like a lot of others, in that, I am keen to aquire more up to date information. And I will gladly give credit to those who provide it. But this fellow is just being awkward. Or perhaps he likes to show off.

 

owen i think if you went and seen Johns loft and set up , you would soon find out he might no what he is talking about, with birds like his and the results he has  to go with them  , he knows a thing or too about keeping birds healthy.

[holmsidelofts]

 

owen i think if you went and seen Johns loft and set up , you would soon find out he might no what he is talking about, with birds like his and the results he has  to go with them  , he knows a thing or too about keeping birds healthy.

 

Hi mate.

Sorry to be blunt but just because he wins races does make him an expert on the subject of salmonella in racing pigeons, Im speaking with the experts at the moment, the people who produce these vaccines, If he such an expert as he makes out its about time he started giving this information he says he had, all we have seen in all his arguments are no modern scientific evidence to back up what hes saying. He says he has spoken to the people but he provides none evidence of this, thats why i take nothing he says seriously and others shouldnt to. All the information i have provide comes from the companies themselves and the many world renowned pigeon vets who speak on the subjects themselves.

Until he starts providing relevant information to back up what hes saying i have no time for him.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Owen]

fred smyth, I have no doubt that the man is a talented flyer and I believe you when you say that he knows a thing or two about the health issues of pigeons. It is his attitude I get fed up with. I do not think any of us have as much knowledge as we would like. And most of us are keen to add to our store of information to make us better at what we are interested in. To do that, I think it would be a good idea to offer facts and opinions on the things we are all concerned with. I resent being lectured to and I soon get fed up with people who want to talk down to the rest of us. And I find it annoying when someone tries to actually make a fool of others who are doing their best to help.

So, in the spirit of co-operation, I will leave it at that. I mean no hard feelings toward anybody and certainly not towards someone I have never met. But can I suggest that your friend tries a little harder to discuss things rather than give us all lectures.

[pigeonscout]

fred smyth, I have no doubt that the man is a talented flyer and I believe you when you say that he knows a thing or two about the health issues of pigeons. It is his attitude I get fed up with. I do not think any of us have as much knowledge as we would like. And most of us are keen to add to our store of information to make us better at what we are interested in. To do that, I think it would be a good idea to offer facts and opinions on the things we are all concerned with. I resent being lectured to and I soon get fed up with people who want to talk down to the rest of us. And I find it annoying when someone tries to actually make a fool of others who are doing their best to help.

So, in the spirit of co-operation, I will leave it at that. I mean no hard feelings toward anybody and certainly not towards someone I have never met. But can I suggest that your friend tries a little harder to discuss things rather than give us all lectures.

 

Owen are you the only one that can have an option.  If someone disagrees with your option is that giving a lecture?  Owen why don’t you just put this disagreement to rest by showing me proof that the vaccine will stop birds from getting paratyphoid and I will be the first to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.

I will be the first to use a vaccine that will stop my birds from getting paratyphoid so until you are anyone else can show me they do prevent birds form getting  it and not just help with the symptoms  I will continue to cure it if and when they get it.

[ch pied]

 

Ask them what I ask, Will their vaccine prevent  your birds from getting paratyphoid? if so can they forward you the information contained in the study carried out that confirms their vaccine stops pigeon form getting paratyphoid this.

i will answer that for you ,,,,,,,NO

 

 

[Guest IB]

I really did not want to post to this thread, as it is in my opinion going round in circles and evidence which can answer some of the questions, or at least add to our knowledge, has again been carefully excluded – up to now anyway.

 

If the question is ‘can pigeons vaccinated against paratyphoid subsequently become infected with the disease’, then the answer is yes. This has been proved in the 1991 research experiments, which some on here have tried to discredit, despite knowing that a follow – up piece of research was done in 1998 (published 2000) in which experiments using 2 killed vaccines (different vaccines from those used in the 1991 work) achieved the same result -  

 

“As determined by clinical examination, plasma chemistry and necropsy, neither

vaccine induced protection against challenge.â€

 

The next time I post on this subject, I hope that it will be with new information that has not been posted / published before.

[holmsidelofts]

I really did not want to post to this thread, as it is in my opinion going round in circles and evidence which can answer some of the questions, or at least add to our knowledge, has again been carefully excluded – up to now anyway.

 

If the question is ‘can pigeons vaccinated against paratyphoid subsequently become infected with the disease’, then the answer is yes. This has been proved in the 1991 research experiments, which some on here have tried to discredit, despite knowing that a follow – up piece of research was done in 1998 (published 2000) in which experiments using 2 killed vaccines (different vaccines from those used in the 1991 work) achieved the same result -  

 

“As determined by clinical examination, plasma chemistry and necropsy, neither

vaccine induced protection against challenge.â€

 

The next time I post on this subject, I hope that it will be with new information that has not been posted / published before.

 

hopefully that information will come tomorrow, i have asked chevita for there test results and a break down of what protection you get from the vaccine.

regarding the protection side of things, a bird that has been vaccinated for salmonella can still catch another strain type, but as they are all related the vaccine will reduce the severity of the disease. If they are not vaccinated we now the outcome most of the time.

 

 

 

[Guest Owen]

Quite frankly I am not qualified to categorically state that the vaccine will or will not prove to be a preventitive for the disease. My opinion is that the current vaccines on offer are unlikely to be trageted accurately enough to be be reliable. As I understand it, the disease is very able to mutate, often. And it also has many differant strains of the bacteria. So that tells me that the vaccine must be produced so as to be specific to the disease that is present in the loft in question. So that leaves us with a major dilemma. Can we take the risk to vaccinate with an untargeted vaccine in the hope that it will trigger the immunity of the pigeon? Would a partial protection be any help or would be fooling ourselves?

Judging from what I see in regard to Paramixo, I know that there are Fanciers out there who do not bother to vaccinate. The disease should be history by now but I continually see it flairing up. And I am equally sure that there are plenty of Fanciers who do not try to protect their pigeons from Paratyphoid. So, if we value our birds, we have to come up with a decision. I have decided to treat my birds with antibiotics in November to ensure that they are clear of the disease before I start breeding. And I am confident that when they go into the race baskets they are clear. I believe that the magority of Belgiums do much the same thing. I supose that we are fortunate that this disease will respond to antibiotics and therefore gives us this option.

I am very conscious of the fact that a lot of the information we read is provided by those who want to sell their products. I often have trouble believing statements when they are made by people who have a financial gain involved in anything.

So there you have it, I have sat on the fence, but you at least know how I see things in regard to the vaccinations.  

[Guest frank dooman]

 

hopefully that information will come tomorrow, i have asked chevita for there test results and a break down of what protection you get from the vaccine.

regarding the protection side of things, a bird that has been vaccinated for salmonella can still catch another strain type, but as they are all related the vaccine will reduce the severity of the disease. If they are not vaccinated we now the outcome most of the time.

 

 

 

dont want to get drawn into this debate and i respect that both holms and owen are very very good at what they do but that is the big prob. a vacine that is produced for a certain strain prob wont stop another (just need to look at the vast amount of money the goverment wasted on bird flue stuff ) only to find out later that by the time it reached us over here it had changed so this could go round in circals with both sides bieng correct JMO

[Guest Owen]

Well said Frank.

[Guest IB]

 

hopefully that information will come tomorrow, i have asked chevita for there test results and a break down of what protection you get from the vaccine.

regarding the protection side of things, a bird that has been vaccinated for salmonella can still catch another strain type, but as they are all related the vaccine will reduce the severity of the disease. If they are not vaccinated we now the outcome most of the time.

 

I emailed Colombovac on salmonella on 17 Dec 2008 on behalf of the forum..

 

Ian Church passed my enquiry to Dr Willem Wijmenga

 

>>> Ian Church 22/12/08 12:16 >>>

Hi Willem

Can you please comment on his tech questions as you know I have no experience with this product

Happy Christmas

Ian

 

 

This is an extract of my question and his reply

 

 

We are now having a discussion on Salmonella in racing pigeons. I note you have an authorised vaccine, Paratyphus Injection for Pigeons, and wondered if you could help? Any comments you have on the following would be most welcome.

 

(Q1)     I understand that there are more than 2000 strains of Salmonella bacteria. Paratyphus Injection for Pigeons is for the Copenhagen strain. Current opinion is that only Copenhagen can affect pigeons, yet according to John Gray’s paper on Salmonella DT104 on the web, DT104 has infected pigeons, lots of other animals, and humans. So the question is will your vaccine protect racing pigeons against other like Salmonella bacteria strains in the same way Jenner’s first discovery  that cow pox vaccine protected against smallpox, because the two (viral) strains were alike? If not why?

 

A1 Crossprotection on Salmonella is limited, our product will protect against typhimurium var Copenhagen. The disease in pigeons is caused almost exclusively by S. typhimurium var. Copenhagen

 

Now that is from a vaccine manufacturer. This is from DEFRA  on 5 Jan 2010

 

Freedom of Information enquiry on Salmonella types (from all incidents reported in racing pigeons between 2005 and  2009) were  :-

 

Kedougou  -   1

Typhimurium

DT2 – 27

DT2a – 1

DT46 – 1

DT56 – 1

DT96 – 2

DT99 – 3

DT193 – 1

 

Total 36

 

Only DT2, DT2a, DT99 are ‘Copenhagen’. So there is likely to be no cross protection, and again, contrary to what we are told, evidence that other species do infect pigeons, and vaccination will give no protection against them.