External Parasites

[Roland]

Bruno this wil be my last post on this matter al being well.

your statement here is flawed ...

With respect, if you look again at your question you will see that your reasoning is flawed. The main point being that you are comparing correct ivomec usage & dosage on large mammals (cattle, for which ivomec was intended) the research to support that doseage endorsed by the license allowing its use in cattle, and incorrect ivomec use on 'small' birds (pigeons) involving a probable massive overdose, probable no research and definite no license...

 

They sel the stuff for satarters, and the amount needed for pigeons is minute in comparison. Hence why every 10 years a CLUB or such purchases a load...

It is minute and hence why the silly spat of yours in saying that it could be injected direct. THAT would be too much strain on their system. But the simple reality is that the THEORY that they put forward in son calld proven tests don't work in [RACTISE. Pour on iIS being used as stated. It is very effective. It does seem to be havng a great effect on Falcon / hawks, and NO there are no known side or adverse effects... otherwise they wouldn't still be using it!

Golly the 'Rusty Nail' in the water takes time, and accordingly should have been harmful etc. Never was... Your birds like any one else will Pick outsideof the loft. They will drink out side of the loft... And nigh every time a crop is opened there is Quatz present... bet you never have that in your grit... so go figure, Stranger than fiction is so prevalent.

I am a great believer in Molehills, Stinging nettles and thisles, like wise Spring water ... just too darn lazy to get off me butt and fetch the darn stuff.... and maybe at a price I can go to the Supermarket and get tailored made products nigh as good... Then one has to read a litttle on the label. Check on the internet and go for it. Harkers eh ... been a few years since I bought oat with that name on it ... infact there is still a load lying around from yonks back waiting to be chucked out.

[Guest beautyhomer]

Bruno,

        You did not answer my question about evidence supporting your theory that ivermectin is stored in the body.You do state that there is no information available because there has been no research,this contradicts your original statement.As many members of this forum have used ivermectin without any problems it sugests it is safe to use.If the pigeons were being poisoned surely their racing results would suffer long before any phsyical symptoms became noticable.If this was the case people would stop using it.

The RSPB propaganda that you have posted about ivermectin in hawks proves nothing,there are far too many variables to draw any conclusions.I presume tests were carried out on dead hawks that were found and not in controlled experiments.

Although the hawks got the ivermectin from pigeons you would need to know the following to prove the build up of ivermectin

 

NUMBER OF PIGEONS EATEN

WHEN WAS THE LAST PIGEON EATEN

HOW LONG AFTER THE PIGEONS HAD BEEN TREATED WITH IVERMECTIN WERE THEY EATEN

 

As this is not possible with wild hawks,the results cannot be used to prove the build up of ivermectin in birds.Maybe the hawks should be told not to eat pigeons until the 56 day meat withhold has expired.What the results do show though is hawks are eating a lot of pigeons and the widespread use of ivermectin.

The scientist you have quoted works for Harkers so he is hardly likely to promote another companies products.Although he does not endorse the use,he does not say that it is unsafe to use either.As vets are prescribing the use of it "off licence" for pigeons they are better qualified than you or me to judge its effectiveness.

As you have failed to prove your point of view I sugest it should be left to forum members to make their own minds up on this issue.

[Guest]

Cut your quote down to (4) points, the others I have already answered:

 

        

(1) You did not answer my question about evidence supporting your theory that ivermectin is stored in the body..

 

You promote its use on pigeons for the sole purpose of poisoning hawks. If ivermectin wasn't stored in the pigeons body, how could / does it get into hawks and poison them? That's evidence. Its called circumstantial evidence. What isn't known is how long it remains in the pigeon's body. (No research) My opinion is lifetime, based on post mortem traces of other poisons e.g. arsenic, have been found in humans and animals.

 

 

(2) The RSPB propaganda that you have posted about ivermectin in hawks proves nothing,there are far too many variables to draw any conclusions...

 

I have never supported the RSPB nor mongered any of its propaganda. The quote you refer to is part of an opinion given not by me, but by a biochemist, and not to me, but to the Scottish Homing Union.

 

(3) The scientist you have quoted works for Harkers so he is hardly likely to promote another companies products.Although he does not endorse the use,he does not say that it is unsafe to use either....

 

As (2) above, I quoted information from my Union, and its source ... their choice, not mine. And Harkers DO promote other company products e.g. Chevita products, despite having their own Brand range.

 

'Pigeons coming into contact with the above CATTLE products stand an extremely high risk of being poisoned' sounds awfully like to me that he is saying the product IS unsafe to use.

 

 

(4) As you have failed to prove your point of view I sugest it should be left to forum members to make their own minds up on this issue.

 

My own point of view and opinion are entirely irrelevant. I have always posted facts in any debate on any subject and I have always said that given ALL the facts, it is up to members to decide their own action.  In other words, informed decision based on facts and not fanciful theories. In my case, my Union appear to have taken the position that it would be unwise to use this product in pigeons, for the reasons given. Given that the advice was issued via the pigeon press, in my opinion it would be unwise for me or any other SHU forum member to go against it ... but it IS up to the individual to decide.

 

And while we are on the subject of fanciful theories ...  if ivermectin is such an effective tool and so widely used, how come general opinion within the fancy is that hawk populations are (still) exploding out of control? If hordes of ivermectin-using people like yourself have hawks under control, why are hawks such an issue?  Where ARE all these dead hawks?  Where's YOUR evidence?

 

 

[Roland]

Because they don't use 'Pour On', and it must be that. And also ecause most don't / didn't know. Sooner they put it into practise the sooner you hawk lovers will be peeved off and we nature lovers will enjoy their sights a lot more freely and better, for they will be in a proper ratio. Yes where we can all see and appreciate them, and marvel at the... even if then a odd pigeon is taken. Now that is a relevant fact.

obviously it is for the betterment of our pigeons, and ultimately the betterment of our sport.

Any Garden Centre can supply what you need, or "Ivomec Pour-On". It can be obtained from Farmers or Agricultural Stores. Gos and Sparrowhawk will both take carrion, and so will the peregrine in a severe winter. though I think the last winter here,and that wasn't a bad one, was 1963.

[Guest beautyhomer]

The only thing that we agree on is it is your opinion that ivermectin is stored for life and not a FACT.

However you have now started putting words in my mouth:-

 

I HAVE NEVER PROMOTED THE USE OF IVERMECTIN FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF POIONING HAWKS OR WORMING PIGEONS FOR THAT MATTER.

I DO NOT USE IVERMECTIN ON PIGEONS BECAUSE I HAVE HAD NONE FOR 6 YEARS AND NEVER USED IT WHEN I DID.

I HAVE NEVER SAID HAWKS ARE UNDER CONTROL AND THEY ARE NOT AN ISSUE WITH ME.

 

Please quote me on the above issues if you can.As I have not posted these statements it will be impossible for you to quote me.Appologies will be accepted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

The only thing that we agree on is it is your opinion that ivermectin is stored for life and not a FACT.

However you have now started putting words in my mouth:-

 

I HAVE NEVER PROMOTED THE USE OF IVERMECTIN FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF POIONING HAWKS OR WORMING PIGEONS FOR THAT MATTER.

I DO NOT USE IVERMECTIN ON PIGEONS BECAUSE I HAVE HAD NONE FOR 6 YEARS AND NEVER USED IT WHEN I DID.

I HAVE NEVER SAID HAWKS ARE UNDER CONTROL AND THEY ARE NOT AN ISSUE WITH ME.

 

Please quote me on the above issues if you can.As I have not posted these statements it will be impossible for you to quote me.Appologies will be accepted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I've gone over your posts and you are quite right in what you say about bald statements. That part of my reply was based on part of your post no158:-

 

Although the hawks got the ivermectin from pigeons you would need to know the following to prove the build up of ivermectin

 

NUMBER OF PIGEONS EATEN

WHEN WAS THE LAST PIGEON EATEN

HOW LONG AFTER THE PIGEONS HAD BEEN TREATED WITH IVERMECTIN WERE THEY EATEN

 

As this is not possible with wild hawks,the results cannot be used to prove the build up of ivermectin in birds.Maybe the hawks should be told not to eat pigeons until the 56 day meat withhold has expired.What the results do show though is hawks are eating a lot of pigeons and the widespread use of ivermectin.

 

To quote a piece of legalise: in letter and spirit.  I apologise as requested as the 'letter'  was not posted, however, the spirit is there for all to see.

 

And as I previously mentioned, the 56 days applies to the correct use and dose of ivermectin ... in cattle. That information comes from research done on cattle. It can't be applied to incorrect use and dose in pigeons.

 

Like yourself, haven't used this product on pigeons, and never will ... and not for any bloody hawk's sake either, thinking purely about the pigeon..

[Roland]

Very True Bruno, I hope you point that out to the Hawk and Falcon brigade if they ever moan why their numbers are shrinking ... likewise their own Rapture reports.

Thanks I agree entirely and as such doublely urge every one to use 'Pour On'!

[tedweb]

gday everyone

I would like some advice on the best way to get get rid of lice from my pigeons

thanks

ted

[Guest]

Hi there, if you follow this link it'll take you to 'Lice' on the Health Board. Mind you, there's lots there, but you will find something to suit.

 

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1128539472/s-0/

[stevebelbin]

Easitox is a good product for getting rid of lice. If you get the BHW you can get it from one of the advertisements. Then use malt vinegar in the bath water (pigeons, not yours LOL), as this keeps lice away.

[Guest shadow]

Harkers one spot on the back of neck

[kev01293]

HI TED, I PAID ABOUT £12 FOR A SMALL BOTTLE OF IVERMECTIN FROM MY LOCAL VETS ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO WHICH I USED TO TREAT ABOUT 60 PIGEONS ,IM TOLD THAT IVERMECTIN KILLS LICE/MITES AND ALSO WORMS SO AT APPROX £12 A BOTTLE IT WAS WELL WORTH THE MONEY- I GAVE EACH PIGEON 2 DROPS DIRECTLY ONTO THE SKIN BEHIND THE NECK AS INSTRUCTED  BY THE VET,  SINCE TREATING MY PIGEONS THEY HAVE ALL BEEN CLEAR OF ANY LICE AND MITES AND SHOW NO OBVIOUSE SIGNS OF ANY WORMS, I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU?

                                                          KEV

PS   HAVE OTHER FANCIERS WHO HAVE TRIED IVERMECTIN FOUND IT TO BE EFFECTIVE ?

[tubbles]

I also had ivermectin, started using it about 5 years ago and it did work but last year a few of us went to the same vet and got the ivermectin and had a terrible time trying to get rid of the damn things. Not sure if the vet has watered it down or something similar Won't mention names just in case.

 

On a slightly different note, a flier by us used the ivermectin and also wormed his birds at the same time with different stuff, this worked really bad and killed quite a few of his youngsters so be careful. Not sure what his choice of wormer was.  Someone else gave a flier in the club some flea killer worked a treat but when he was asked what it was called it was oh you can't get it anymore and i can't remember the name of it......... dear dear believe it was stuff from Rentokil but obviously not sure sorry perhaps someone else knows.

[jimmy white]

have used ivermectin,,,no probs at all ,,

[THE FIFER]

garlic water in their bath, or put garlic water in a spray bottle and spray under wings, will clear the lot.

[paul l]

garlic water in their bath, or put garlic water in a spray bottle and spray under wings, will clear the lot.

 

thanks for that idea for future ref

[peterpau]

Always use Ivermectin but the vet don't like to use it anymore because the birds of prey get a build up in there system. Shame. Use it every six weeks in racing season but use different stuff in the winter.

[THE FIFER]

garlic in the bath

[Chatrace]

Ivermectin  for cattle is what I use 3 drops in the mouth, worms them and also get rid of parisites

[madmaxlofts]

i use 1 spot

put one drop on the back ov the neck

sorted

[Peckedhen]

I tried the Harker's one drop a couple of weeks ago but they've still got lice......I just dripped it between the shoulders like it says on the bottle..should I have parted the feathers so the drop went on the skin?   :-/

[pigeonpete]

I tried the Harker's one drop a couple of weeks ago but they've still got lice......I just dripped it between the shoulders like it says on the bottle..should I have parted the feathers so the drop went on the skin?   :-/

 

hi pecked,yeah that would help to help stay on longer, but to be honest, i have used in the past!! and doesnt deem to get rid of them for long, i use ivormec twice a year 1 drop in mouth, seems to keep them away!!

[Peckedhen]

Thanks Pete. :K)

[Guest]

Made much the same mistake with Harkers Feathers Drop, designed to go on the skin, not the feathers. Creeps, eventually covers all skin. It is not an insecticide, it doesn't kill directly, it is an insect repellant, designed to chase anything on the bird away, and keep them away.

 

Recently came across another 'creeper' designed to go on the skin, this one's an insecticide (designed for cats & dogs) the late Frank Harper, pigeon vet, reckoned best there is for pigeons. It's called  Frontline, binds to the bird's skin so sees off 'biters' too. Reference to Frontline in Wim Peter's book p280, too, so endorsed by him too. Plan to give Frontline a try this year, as a back-up to Drops, and garlic & vinegar in weekly bath water.

 

 

 

[Roland]

Chinese Chalk works wonders, just draw a line under the perch... or around the nest bowl.