brotherxsister

[Guest Owen]

pjc

there is absolutely no doubt that you can inbreed for many generations without a break. People who produce Laboritory Animals do it all the time. The theory is that, the early generations will show up the reccessive genes that are not acceptable. They then are rejected and off you go again picking out those that are not wanted again. After a number of generations you will have purified the gene pool in those indivuals that are left in such a way that there are no unwanted genes left. Lots of farm animals were produced in that way. The geneticists will tell you that the fewer characters you select for the better. That is because the maths are simpler, and genetics is all about maths. However we still have dogs with hip problems, Texel sheep with ingrowing eyelashes and a host of unwanted characters that have not been bred out. The problem you have with inbreeding is that as each generation passes you loose vigour. And the only way to restore it by out crossing. Ideally to another inbred family that has been bred with the same targets in mind. The first generation will normally perform to fantastic levels. But not further generations because they go back to the lower vigour levels of the original specimens. In theory we could use this idea to breed racing pigeons, but in practice it would take too long and you would have to have a large number of individuals to work with. Although I agree that it can be done, I certainly would never attempt it. Better to pair best to best on a sliding scale or use the Bull System.  

[Guest Owen]

dwh

yes mate you are reading this right. I had to start with the best homers I had because I had no winners. And I had done what a lot of other people do, bought birds with fancy pedigees. Well I then started to produce better birds and the Fancy Dans ended in the bin and I continued to breed from the best I had. My criteria now is that my cocks have to win at least four races before they get to breed. And because I fly widowhood the hens are selected on their young bird performances. When you read the adverts in the paper you are given the impression that everything you read is the truth and that you are able to buy birds to breed you winners. Well both things are possible, I supose, but I would rather know what I am doing. Besides I am proud of the birds I have because I have bred them myself. The credit goes to me not some Belgium or Dutchman.

[Guest IB]

Jimmy White gifted me a cock off a brother & sister pairing. Wasn't what I thought a typical inbred pigeon though, these were said to be 'depressed' / lacking in vitality , etc. This cock was full of vitality, never stood still, thats what you are said to get from a cross.   Hybrid vigour. Advice was that he should be put to an inbred hen of a different family. Only took two, put both on the road, dropped one as a YB. Other one is still here, channel candidate 2010, and he seems to be able to throw them too.

 

Have tried close matings myself: had a brother & sister pair up naturally and tried a few nests, none of them made it to ringing stage, living skeletons. The same family, tried a father & best daughter mating, again none of the nests made it to ringing stage, for same reason.

 

So must depend on family genetic make-up, and I'd say the bxs offspring would be for crossing into another inbred family, i.e. for breeding, not racing.

 

 

[Guest frank dooman]

i am right into this subject just now and have tried to realy understand it properly for many years there are some fanciers who this subject comes naturaly (good stock men ) but some like me have to work very hard (thick) ive studied it and gathered many books and videos to try and get to the botom of it iam at the moment trying to reproduce my old va-eiden cock who has bred many many winners at over 550mls so iam pairing him to two of his own daughters something i would never do but iam told the y/birds will be only godd for the stock loft and prob wont race they are for crossing to the hen that has been paired to the old fella for the last 3 years with great results the main prob i find is that when you read/talk to the men that realy do know what they are talking about they ALL controdict  them self wich makes it very confusing i thik both owen and tony are correct and wrong winner  to winner is 100% but are prob very closley bred to start with in a small loft so you can be inbreeding when doing that,the one thing ALL the experts agree with bar none  is when you pratice  inbreeding you must be brutal with the off spring cull when nec. and test with brutal force so then you end up with winner to winner the prob comes when you need the cross but with out doubt half brother to half sister or uncle/niece g/father/g/dtr are all more suited but the best racer will allways be the 1st cross

[Guest Owen]

Frank

I think that if you have an idea you need to follow it through. And if you think you can reproduce the old cock, you really ought to give it a go. You will learn more about genetics or anything else by trying things out, than listening to me or anyone else. But there are certain undeniable truths that you should be aware of before you start so that you can watch for them and plan around them it you can.

To have a chance of reproducing your old cock you will need to pair birds that are closely related to him together. Then if there are any reccessive weaknesses they should show up. You then have to eliminate the individuals that show the weaknesses and then carry on breeding. The next generation will also throw up weaknesses, which you again need to eliminate. But as each generation comes about the weaknesses should get less and less. The thing I can not work out is, how you are going to know that you are going in the right direction. To do that you will have to test the progeny because if you do not you could end up down a totally blind alley. The problem with racing pigeons is always the same, we can not see which are good and which are not. They have to show us on the road.

I cross breed because I know that I will eventually end up with vigorous birds with the right genes. For example if one bird wins because it is very courageous and another because it is a good athlete I hope to end up with birds that have inherited both courage and athletisism. Now that is the idea I started out with. The practical result is differant. Certain families of birds have now gone and there are just two families left. The good thing is that I am now producing far better birds all around. I still loose youngsters but not nearly as many. So in practice I need to breed less and less to gain much the same results. Then of course my management improves because I can concentrate on the fewer birds better than a mob.  

[Guest Freebird]

dwh

yes mate you are reading this right. I had to start with the best homers I had because I had no winners. And I had done what a lot of other people do, bought birds with fancy pedigees. Well I then started to produce better birds and the Fancy Dans ended in the bin and I continued to breed from the best I had. My criteria now is that my cocks have to win at least four races before they get to breed. And because I fly widowhood the hens are selected on their young bird performances. When you read the adverts in the paper you are given the impression that everything you read is the truth and that you are able to buy birds to breed you winners. Well both things are possible, I supose, but I would rather know what I am doing. Besides I am proud of the birds I have because I have bred them myself. The credit goes to me not some Belgium or Dutchman.

 

As usual a great input from Owen. If and when I do eventually get into racing pigeons ( when I have more time ) I would do as he has done rather than buying in hyped up over priced stock. I think it must be an even nicer feeling winning with a family you have bred by elimination/selection of desirable traits, no mean thing in the racing pigeon world and much easier ( but not easy ) in the fancy breeds. Nothing in life is simple if you set high targets but they are achievable if you have the patience and the help of people with good hard earned knowledge ( not read from books etc. ) Only thing I have to say to Owen and I know from previous posts he has a good grasp of genetics but never say never because in the right hands inbreeding and linebreeding has its place. After all we would not have the racing pigeon if it were not down to knowledgeable breeders selecting traits and a lot of inbreeding/linebreeding was used to fix the desirable traits and eliminate the undesirable ones. Getting back to the thread, If the two siblings are special I would not hesitate in taking at least ( minimum ) three rounds of youngsters. If these youngsters show the same characteristics of the parents i.e. size, conformation, character and general health and constitution then it is time to prove themselves in, or should I say out of the basket. If the gene pool of the siblings is ( right ) you'll be on to a winner but like everything in life it ain't that simple and if it were then most would not be doing it and you’d be as well racing virtual pigeons on an XBOX. Hopefully you will let us know if this experiment works for you but even if it dose it will not work for anyone else because that is the beauty of life itself, nothing is straight forward. Think I have had enough to drink, What?

 

 

[Guest Freebird]

i am right into this subject just now and have tried to realy understand it properly for many years there are some fanciers who this subject comes naturaly (good stock men ) but some like me have to work very hard (thick) ive studied it and gathered many books and videos to try and get to the botom of it iam at the moment trying to reproduce my old va-eiden cock who has bred many many winners at over 550mls so iam pairing him to two of his own daughters something i would never do but iam told the y/birds will be only godd for the stock loft and prob wont race they are for crossing to the hen that has been paired to the old fella for the last 3 years with great results the main prob i find is that when you read/talk to the men that realy do know what they are talking about they ALL controdict  them self wich makes it very confusing i thik both owen and tony are correct and wrong winner  to winner is 100% but are prob very closley bred to start with in a small loft so you can be inbreeding when doing that,the one thing ALL the experts agree with bar none  is when you pratice  inbreeding you must be brutal with the off spring cull when nec. and test with brutal force so then you end up with winner to winner the prob comes when you need the cross but with out doubt half brother to half sister or uncle/niece g/father/g/dtr are all more suited but the best racer will allways be the 1st cross

 

 

Frank, 1st of all, you are not as thick as me, He He! This is a very difficult subject even for the geneticists as they do not have all the answers (and I am only talking colour/fancy breeds) As Owen says the racing ability cannot be seen (no matter how good the photograph) It has to be proven, which takes time. The best thing you can do is pair him to a hen ( whether related or not, but better related ) which is quiet and unassuming ( hard for me to explain ) but a hen that is subordinate to him so that his ( hopefully ) genes over ride hers and come out on top. If that don't work then try, try again. The more things you try the better chance of getting a result but in the end no one, even the best genetisist on the planet cannot gaurantee a result. But hey, if you do get even near him you will have achieved something. Have fun.

 

[Guest frank dooman]

yes agree totaly owen i started 3 years ago realy testing the y/birds from this line and like you let the basket sort them out the one and only reason for pairing this father/dtr is to test if i can replace the old fella in the stock loft the ans, to that will only come 3/4 years from now with the y/birds from them tested in the same way all my y/birds must complete the full prog. and some will go on to the y/bird nat 276mls then as yearlings they  must got to at least wanstead flats350 but most  go further to maidstone 380 mls and then on to lillers/arras 470 i stop nothing unless injured i have many sons and dtrs from him that have won right up to 1st sec reims 576mls and androzell 587mls so i know they can do it i also have a dtr. that won 25th open reims 567mls in the loft so i could pair they full broth/sister winner to winner but as a rule i dont want to go that close i also have very good birds from hotrod and jock ellis thats my crosses for vigari dont think i will go far wrong while i wait to see if this pairing with the old fella is sucsessfull time will tell

[dwh]

::)a good and interesting thread I agree that best goes to best but surely there comes a time when you must introduce new blood to retain vitality in your loft  how do you do this do you buy a close relative off a champion racer/breeder or purchase the champion itself and what would you consider the best cock or hen?

[Guest frank dooman]

 

 

Frank, 1st of all, you are not as thick as me, He He! This is a very difficult subject even for the geneticists as they do not have all the answers (and I am only talking colour/fancy breeds) As Owen says the racing ability cannot be seen (no matter how good the photograph) It has to be proven, which takes time. The best thing you can do is pair him to a hen ( whether related or not, but better related ) which is quiet and unassuming ( hard for me to explain ) but a hen that is subordinate to him so that his ( hopefully ) genes over ride hers and come out on top. If that don't work then try, try again. The more things you try the better chance of getting a result but in the end no one, even the best genetisist on the planet cannot gaurantee a result. But hey, if you do get even near him you will have achieved something. Have fun.

 

 

i can understand what you are saying its me thats bieng thick ;D and not explaining my self properly as my last post says i am in the lucky pos as owen is that i have a no. of birds producing winners but more importantly producing lots of birds that are still there at the end of a full hard y/bird season and as a small loft i am now finding it hard to decide what to keep this pairing is for one reason only the old fella is 12 years old and realy starting to show his age i think this will be  my last year with him i hope not but i need to try and get as many different permations as i can and the realy expert in breeders say this is the way to reproduce him with at least 75% of his genes then they need to be crossed stright away for the vitality/vigar the hen he is paired to is bred in the purple and one of the sons from this pairing is going stright back to her when you are lucky enough to come across a bird like this its hard to think they wont be filling eggs for you next year the realy good stockman does something about it if he can thats my aim for thease y/birds from this pairing time will tell if i can keep this line going all though i can allways fall bace on his very good sons/dtrs

 

[Guest frank dooman]

another point i would like to say is its one thing going best to best if your in your pos with realy great doo,s owen and iam blessed with some of the birds ive got but as you and me have experienced it takes lots of hard work and even more luck to get to the pos. of haveing the oppertuinty to be able to put winner to winner but yes i agree its the surest way of keeping it going but then you are  line breeding after 2 years

[Guest Freebird]

 

 

i can understand what you are saying its me thats bieng thick ;D and not explaining my self properly as my last post says i am in the lucky pos as owen is that i have a no. of birds producing winners but more importantly producing lots of birds that are still there at the end of a full hard y/bird season and as a small loft i am now finding it hard to decide what to keep this pairing is for one reason only the old fella is 12 years old and realy starting to show his age i think this will be  my last year with him i hope not but i need to try and get as many different permations as i can and the realy expert in breeders say this is the way to reproduce him with at least 75% of his genes then they need to be crossed stright away for the vitality/vigar the hen he is paired to is bred in the purple and one of the sons from this pairing is going stright back to her when you are lucky enough to come across a bird like this its hard to think they wont be filling eggs for you next year the realy good stockman does something about it if he can thats my aim for thease y/birds from this pairing time will tell if i can keep this line going all though i can allways fall bace on his very good sons/dtrs

Frank, this may be of no use to you what so ever but only you know this old cock, his ways etc. and believe me all these ( simple ) genetic pointers like character in the loft, conformation, look, temperament etc. etc. point toward a good chance you will re-produce the old fella. If a youngster and it is more likely to be a hen ( from my own experience ) shows his character then I would concentrate on her ( him ) to produce the goods eventually. I hope you have success. I say hen as sometimes traits come through the opposite sex, sometimes they skip a generation, sometimes they do nothing at all. THIS is what you are up against but you have at least the drive ( the old cock ) to do what most people can only dream about and I hope you acheive it.

 

 

[Guest frank dooman]

Frank, this may be of no use to you what so ever but only you know this old cock, his ways etc. and believe me all these ( simple ) genetic pointers like character in the loft, conformation, look, temperament etc. etc. point toward a good chance you will re-produce the old fella. If a youngster and it is more likely to be a hen ( from my own experience ) shows his character then I would concentrate on her ( him ) to produce the goods eventually. I hope you have success. I say hen as sometimes traits come through the opposite sex, sometimes they skip a generation, sometimes they do nothing at all. THIS is what you are up against but you have at least the drive ( the old cock ) to do what most people can only dream about and I hope you acheive it.

 

 

yes agree and thank you all the best for 2010

 

 

[Roland]

although there are birds that have won from brother sister mating i do believe its going against nature.

we look too much for the perfect pigeon without realising what we are creating,we have diseases from ear to ear around us these days and crossing genes that are close are just a disaster waiting to happen.

when imune systems are needed to be at its fullest strengths, why do we cross nestlings.

for all we know we could be creating weak genes that have no defence against illnesses.

too many excuses for weak imune systems are blamed on over use of medications ,while all the time brother sister matings are done.

upto the individual but not for me sorry.

 

Agree 100%! If incest breeding  - in any form from man to animals - has proven anything it is in the long run, and very often the very short one, is that you shouldn't do it.

From madness to wierdness and very poor healthy.

I, like many others, believe that incest breeding is a major reason why the birds ae / or don't have a very good immune system, and further, m  a very detrimental behavior in their homing instinct. Most are soon filling up roof tops and buildings  etc.

As I often quip, unfortunately most don't know why, let alone how to do incest breeding.

Further to say Owen's point of Breeding anything together TO get better results.

That is very poor stockmanship for starters. And regardless 'Winner to Winner' breeding means mostly one is quickly breeding loser to loser. Like 'Best to Best' means you are very soon breeding worst to worst! Or not breeding anything. Show me a loft that has 8 great winners. Yes of course there are some. Show me a loft that has a ratio of 20 to one, 30 to one or even 50 - 1 losers to winners... Yes there are scores, 70% to 80% I'd reckon easierly.

 

[aye ready]

hi frank not been back on that long but i've read all the posts and great comments are forthcoming i applaud what you are trying to do and hope you reach your objective but 99% of my winners i'll admit have been crosses but have 1 common denominator and that is they can be traced back to my base pair on 1 side as as probably the case in your old cock my old pair now deceased were very scarce in pedigree so you can probably call what i hit on pure luck that is why i posted the question if anyone had any luck as racers with offspring from a brother /sister pairing or maybe i should have asked would they be better off in the stock loft and by the way on the pedigrees of my base pair there are no mention of winners just ring numbers and they were bought on the basis that they took my eye and were in boxes on that basis only

[Guest frank dooman]

yes most of my winners are 1st cross from the old fella but i dont intend to race thease y/birds just simply try to replace the old boy as best i can, i would think brother /sister would fall into the same cat. but when you watch some of the videos thats not what they are saying but generaly too close for me

[Guest Freebird]

hi frank not been back on that long but i've read all the posts and great comments are forthcoming i applaud what you are trying to do and hope you reach your objective but 99% of my winners i'll admit have been crosses but have 1 common denominator and that is they can be traced back to my base pair on 1 side as as probably the case in your old cock my old pair now deceased were very scarce in pedigree so you can probably call what i hit on pure luck that is why i posted the question if anyone had any luck as racers with offspring from a brother /sister pairing or maybe i should have asked would they be better off in the stock loft and by the way on the pedigrees of my base pair there are no mention of winners just ring numbers and they were bought on the basis that they took my eye and were in boxes on that basis only

 

Fantastic thread Ayeready. The best way by far as far as I'm concerned is by eye as this surely is all one can go by until the day of reckoning. This would also apply to selection of youngsters but as I said nothing is guaranteed, especially with something as complex as racing ability. As, no doubt many fanciers have held, seen and in their own mind convinced themselves of a good bird, only to be humbled by the lack of performance. Don't judge a book by its cover comes to mind!

 

[aye ready]

frank you could have 10yrs + breeding in these young birds if you intend to keep them for stock so whats the harm in breeding brother/sister together then outcrossing the youngbirds the following year that way the youngsters off the brother /sister pairing will be as close as you get imo to the old cock and if it don't work then at least you've tried and on an earlier post it says most fanciers on the continent cross their birds where does most of the problems we incur originate from jmo

[Guest frank dooman]

frank you could have 10yrs + breeding in these young birds if you intend to keep them for stock so whats the harm in breeding brother/sister together then outcrossing the youngbirds the following year that way the youngsters off the brother /sister pairing will be as close as you get imo to the old cock and if it don't work then at least you've tried and on an earlier post it says most fanciers on the continent cross their birds where does most of the problems we incur originate from jmo

 

beat you to it last year martin just trying to cover all the bases but would only do that pairing for stock loft then cross right away

[aye ready]

agree 100% frank cross the offspring right away but as i have never done a brother / sister pairing i thought i would ask the question before going headfirst into the unknown but how many fanciers breed a good line of birds and then 5/6 years down the line there all gone and the old question comes into the head "why didn't i keep half a dozen y/b's off that pair" well thats what i done,once it became clear thatt i had hit onto something good i l put away to stock later bred youngsters exactly the same way bred as the way the birds that were winning for me in racing,imo its not winner to winner it's the bloodlines of winners that come to the fore

[Guest frank dooman]

i done exactly the same and i dont want to be there in a few years and say i wish!!!! its very hard to stop a bird that is only 2yr old and put him in the stock loft i supose its the right way to do it but iam trying to keep the family going and the family racing can you do that i dont know but i will try we need to remember it can all come to an end in one year if we get disaster after disaster it can happen they are all gone in one year worst case i know butt!!!!!!

[Guest stb-]

i done exactly the same and i dont want to be there in a few years and say i wish!!!! its very hard to stop a bird that is only 2yr old and put him in the stock loft i supose its the right way to do it but iam trying to keep the family going and the family racing can you do that i dont know but i will try we need to remember it can all come to an end in one year if we get disaster after disaster it can happen they are all gone in one year worst case i know butt!!!!!!

 

Frank it is not hard at all just refrain from putting it in the baskett. the long term outways the short term reward ;)

[aye ready]

frank i was always told that the easiest thing to do in pigeon racing is put a bird in the basket and the hardest was to put a winning pigeon in the stock loft and i know cos i've done it umpteen times and whats the end result 99% of the time there's always that bridge too far and a good pigeons lost (greed for that 1 more performance) anyway thanks for everyones input i'm off to bed some of us have work in the morning (sleeping)(sleeping)(sleeping)

[Guest frank dooman]

 

Frank it is not hard at all just refrain from putting it in the baskett. the long term outways the short term reward ;)

 

watched big stuart do it with Karens girl where is she now but like me he he still has the pair that bred her and lots bred round about her birds are  bred to race i wont stop them untill at least  4yr/old if that family cant do that then they are not as good as we need as long as you have plenty round about them remember i have a few other secerets whith hotrods birds and others but cant tell you any more or will need to kill you ;) ;)

[Guest stb-]

 

watched big stuart do it with Karens girl where is she now but like me he he still has the pair that bred her and lots bred round about her birds are  bred to race i wont stop them untill at least  4yr/old if that family cant do that then they are not as good as we need as long as you have plenty round about them remember i have a few other secerets whith hotrods birds and others but cant tell you any more or will need to kill you ;) ;)

 

fRANK IF kARENS GIRL WAS MINE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY STOCK LOFT IN AVIARY FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE .   NO POINT IN FEEDING HAWKS GOOD PIGEONS.