I,m sorry Owen but why do you keep writing this rubbish AND IT IS RUBBISH,it may be something that you believe in but it is not fact,many times I and others have said that their best breeders are birds that have never flown let alone won anything,many novices will read these threads and think that the only way to breed winners is by pairing winner to winner as you keep saying but this simply is not true, there is no guarantee that because to birds have won loads of races between them that they will breed the same,I breed winners every year and almost all my stock birds have never raced,perhaps I,m just lucky somehow I dont think so.