timbarra

roland hi mate, i just read your piece on green and violet eyes which is recessive, well mate there are only 2 base colours of eyes and that is yellow dominent and white recessive, white eyed pigeons will only bred white eyed pigeons when paired together, but will breed yellow pigeons if paired to a yellow eye, this pairing will also breed white eyes if the yellow eyed pigeon carrys the recessive gene for whit, check this with your birds mate, you will find i am right. white paired to white will only breed white. speak soon mate best wishes spencer

hi davey, i have had 4 articles published in the BHW explaining my methods and studies, however i know doubters are all around, i shall give you as much information as you want regarding my findings and once you have read them , you can try and see for yourself and make up your own mind, use it or cast it to the side, its your call, i am still waiting for jack to take up the gauntlett so to speak , but if he does not it will be ok, i think he wont as he can not tell one pigeons relationship to another just by looking in the eye, but thats what i tried to explain eyesign has evolved , it must move forward not held in the 60 and 70s or 80s even... move it forward. i was just like alleyesign men once , i got caught up on the evaluation of a pigeons ability using the eye... but someone said something to make me step off and re-study my methods and bloody hell it was an eye opener i can tell you, i discovered that eyesign can be used and should only be used to confirm parentage of individaul birds, not having to rely on pedigree or someones word. we had a method due to eyes being a genetically inherited trait and a genetic fingerprint of the pigeon... now your thinking i can tell, regards spencer

hi davey, i will apologise for the challenge , its directed at you but thought you studied more than i thought, i can however pick parents of pigeons as eyesign is a genetic fingerprint , i am sorry but i think i may have thought you were more into it than i thought mate, please please accept my apology , i did not mean to offend you in anyway, it really is a challenge to your uncle as he keeps telling me i should challenge him . so the challenge is to jack and the same terms apply with no side stepping or excusses made, hope your well davey and your respose was sensible and just as i was wrong to mention you in the message sorry. regards spencer..

hi roland , i only give eletrolytes to my breeding birds as i find when they feeding after about 7-8 days their body salt levels drop and need 2 days electrolyte to restore it, race birds get plain water every day maybe a calcium supplement added every 2 weeks . cheers spence

i personally do not use the stuff but what i do use is... vitalin dog flakes . put in a bowl dry and watch them eat it. they feed it to youngsters like a porridge and it got minerals and vitamins in it anyway.. i do not feed grit either only pink and black minerals. and i feed diet mix all year , racing, breeding, resting, i have not treated my pigeons for 16 years with any medication and i never if hardky get sick pigeons.. and i win lots...

hi roland i do not need anything tangible to read, its like yourself i would rather stick to facts than one or two mens ideas , eyesign men , as i am sure you would agree never back anything up with hard facts just a challenge , when really most of us have better things to do with our time... so i will ask Jack i will hold your challenge and that challenge is this.... if you or better still save you travelling , your nephew sorry to rope you in on this davey B , travel to my loft and note down in what relationship my pigeons are one to another and every pigeon i hand you , choose both parents.. and in return if you get every one of them right , and i mean everyone of them, i will put an apology and nationally accept your theories as true.. and i mean you tell me every pigeons relationship one to another.... this should be very interesting!!

Dear Jack, I have if you read and re-read my messages to you , i have never insulted you or made any rude or nasty comments about you, i only asked what qualifications you have to which you can claim to be an expert. god do you really think people are going to just accept your word without question , just because you say so without any proof. and will you not stop going on about challenges, god will you ever get over your self obsessed manner of thinking everybody is against you. and as for mr bob flemming , i never knew the man but the lack of respect you have for the sadly passed away people of this world is very concerning, you seem to insult the living and insult the dead, can you not let anybody have an opinion of their own or think differently to you. you seem a very bitter and twisted old man, for whatever has made you this way is very sad indeed, i have never wished you any ill feeling , and yes you have offered the hand of friendship, only then when i do not agree with you slapped me with the other hand. how very odd you are. i am at a loss with how to approach you so i shall not endeavor to do so, basically for the fear of causing you some anguish you think i cause, i must tell you that one day very soon eyesign will have evolved into something of fact and it will then be accepted, but alas i do think you will not be one of the pioneers of this, as your thinking and ideas and non logical and theory practices do not carry one shread of proof and shall be shunned by most rather than the few. roland i think is a sensible guy with reasoning as one of he's major qualities, something that you can never posses jack, and insults as you throw shall always be deemed ignorant and a tool of neandrathal man. you sir i think are going the way of the dinosaur, soon to be extinct. if i am such a no. no. in certain areas as you put it, ask yourself if this is true why is it only yourself seems to want to argue with me, when all i am doing is debating and looking for answers which still you lack the repect to give. like i said to you in possibly my first message to you, pigeon fanciers can never admit they are wrong , they are part of the .... i am always right brigade and i know it all. as for insulting my family as you have done as refering to them in your recent massage to me, i think this action is of the very lowest on any itegrity scale possible. i have never once said anything to insult your family and shall not stoop so low, you sir are a man of little repect for the living or the dead, and lack integrity and confidence in your own life, you are self obsessed and rude without thinking. i shall be complaining about the insults you have aimed at me. regards to all spencer. :-/

davey , i do believe in eyesign but not as a selection tool and not to propose a pigeons ability, cheers anyway for your reply, roland thanks for your words , they are taken on board and maybe hopefully we could meet up and have a cool drink in the sun, and talk pigeons for an hour, thank you all spencer.

hi Davey, i will be leaving the forum yes, and it will probably be a quieter place after i have gone, i still have not had the answers i asked for , for me to concede Jack Barkel correct , i gave him the chance and alsa could not prove me wrong with any facts, as for sir alex ferguson not having his F.A coaches badge, well its against the rules not to have it, and i know for a fact he has got it !! and if he spoke to me about football i would listen due to the fact being , he is the most succesful manager alive toay and he is qaulified to do so. as for your uncle he is neither of these. so is the great Jack Barkel going to answer my questions or slip them as before . ? my questions are still waiting to be answererd Jack. regards spencer,

gangster i do agree with you some of their birds are good, very good and i repect their fanciers enormously, i shall not be returning to this forum i think. regards spencer :-/

Davey B, i think you are probably one of the most sensible people here and i apologise if what i say to you uncle is not to great, but i think you are clever enough not to use it totally as a selector of your pigeons and as part of the jigsaw instead of using it as a whole thing, i have a lot of repect for people of the more advanced years and experiance. i believe in good pigeons and good managment of them. thats it. i do have respect for yourself and your uncle , but my findings are not as he finds things which i will have to concede that we must agree to disagree, i think your uncle and i have probably gone on like an old married couple. pigeon men are stubborn, all of us, but what i want to promote is that people keep an open mind on eyesign. cheers spencer

Dear jack, I do not find any reason to lock horns with you. i have however said that people who want to listen to what i have to say should think about it and then make up their own minds, i have not forced my ways or methods down peoples throats or attempted to brain wash them. i do not challenge people as i feel i am not in the school playground anymore, unlike some. as for the gentleman writing the thread on eyesign as he has found it , thank you i am finding it a good read and very interesting, ALL I SAID WAS THAT EYESIGN SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SELECT RACING PIGEONS AND PRIDICT THEIR ABILITY, AND I HAVE FRIENDS WHO USED BILL CARNEY'S SERVICES AND FOUND HIM TO BE INCORRECT. EYESIGN MEN SEEM TO WANT TO HOLD ON TO WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DO NOT WISH EYESIGN TO EVOLVE .... EYESIGN IS CHANGING AND IT IS BASED ON THE EYE BEING A GENETIC FINGERPRINT OF A CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL. NOT USING EYESIGN AS A SELECTION TOOL. This is probably going to get you all heated again and daggers flying. I ASK YOU THIS JACK AND I WANT A HONEST ANSWER!! IF EYESIGN SHOULD BE USED TO SELECT AND BE USED AS A SELECTION TOOL AS YOU AND MOST EYESIGN EXPERTS THINK, WHY DO PEOPLE WHEN ASSEMBLING A FOOTBALL TEAM OF TOP PLAYERS NOT LOOK IN THEIR EYES TO JUDGE THEIR ABILITY? THE SAME APPLIES TO ATHELETES, RUGBY PLAYERS, CRICKETERS? WELL ? AND MAY I ASK WHERE YOU GAINED YOUR QUALIFICATION IN IRIOLOGY? AND AT WHAT LEVEL? SO I CAN CHECK THAT YOU HAVE A DEGREE IN WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE AN EXPERT AT? DO NOT ANSWER ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT WHAT I ASK THEN I CAN CHECK WITH THE APPROPRIATE PERSONS AND CONCEDE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Thank you. spencer

do not throw a football at them, what a stupid thing to advise, do not starve them either... and do not get any tumblers or dropper pigeons.. god how primative is the advice given by some people. i agree with roland leave them they will come good and trap when it matters , train them 6 times from 5 miles then jump them to 20 miles for a further 6 tosses then 30 miles for a further 6 tosses , they will come good , they are like children when you call them in for their tea they always stay out longer and do not break the spirit of your birds. do not panic feed them little in the mornings and full feed when they come in. hope it helps..

and i actually do think the other top flyers in countrys such as germany , belgium , holland do think of us as stupid and how correct they are. they are far more advanced than us in every department. we even buy their pigeons that they dont want thinking they are great.... they always find a mug to buy them in GB.

bilco, read what i have written .. i have not insulted any of our continental cousins at all . for you to see that in any message i have written is pure ignorance on your part.. i think british fanciers and 80% of them are bloody stupid and dated in their thoughts and projections. as i think you are sir and believe me its about time the older generation of pigeon hobbiests and yes it is a hobby not a sport.. changed with the times . as for you thinking that top flyers abroad do not have a computer or fail to understand our language is again silly of you to think. i will leave you and your thoughts to whatever notion you have,

please ask yourselves, why do none of the best flyers in the belgium, germany, or holland put messages in this forum, because you matter not.

albear, if your children are laughing and smiling that should tell you there happy...... god man do you know how obssessed you sound with eyes. i cant talk to you people anymore , there is a real world out there and pigeon fanciers , most of them not all really want to wake up before life is gone by. the rest of the world laugh at pigeon people because of the way pigeons are portraid, whenever you mention your a pigeon fancier i bet it comes with a slight hint of embarrassment..... dont say it doesnt because it does. thats how sad the rest of the population think pigeon men are. and sometimes like now i find i have to agree. sorry everyone just do your own thing. goodbye

albear , eyesign is not alot and is over complicated by eyesign people, i do not select my pigeons using eyesign , would you select your children telling them which child is better than the other, and when they find a partner look into he's eyes and tell them their children will be no good or they will be doctors etc etc.. no you would not, and i have done loft evaluations for many lofts and picked their best birds , which is not hard really because if you know anything about pigeons, you should be able to do without looking into their eyes!! i will also admit to evaluate a pigeon like i did as most eyesign men, was wrong , i was wrong to do it.. i am not here to argue but i tell you what i know differently to most eyesign men and they should carry on in their beliefs as they wont change , and thats ok, i will however not be messaging much more due to the imature insults of some people who like to try and deter others. well done you done it , you win mr barkel, hope your happy , i have my family and children who are there for me always and my life is fulfilling enough to relise that you are set in your ways, i did not insult you mr barkel and only made reference to bill carney for what friends of mine have experienced, and if anyone was right about something they would not make mistakes , its not trial and error... it supposed to be facts that your boasting and trying to spread for people to believe. yes i have taken offence by your insulting words and thought better of you, i wish you the best in all your endeavours and never thought ill of you because you make a supplement income from pigeons on the contrary i admire you. but you took it the wrong way as people do. i wish everybody all the best in whatever they do and bid you good day. regards spencer.

Most British pigeons can't win without some drug dependence, this has changed the eyes dramatically especially in your country . no need to try and insult people, so i shall treat your comments with the contempt they deserve, you argue and as your of the old school fanciers ... trying to discuss it with you is futile as yes your always right... arent you

hi jack, thanks for the repky , no offence taken take care. hi roland, i will endeavour to answer your question. firstly champions do produce pigeons better and equal to themselves, they can also produce pigeons worse than themselves also . this i think is due not to eyesign. but it is down to compatability to each other as a mate , that is why alot of fanciers pair winner to winner to try to improve their chances of producing winners. like i said to jack eyesign should never be used as a measuring tool to evaluate a pigeons ability, let the basket work and results do that for you also top bloodlines should be studied and the ability to try and keep the good work done by the strains founders can be kept and improved on. eyesign should only be used to confirm parentage it cant tell you a pigeon is capable of anything, if that was the case would the top policing units around the world look into peoples eyes and tell whether they are phsycotic enough to kill someone... can you imagine people being arrested and sentenced to life for a murder that they have yet to commit??? bloody hell the world would be insane. albear i personnaly have not met bill carney and i would not be interested in doing so, i know people who have had their lofts evaluated by him and he was wrong. . . dead pigeons can not prove people wrong . i never cull using eyesign . what a narrow minded view that would be. and sir you can defend mr carney however you see fit. i shall not get into petty arguements. can you not hink for yourself instead of following others that claim to profess what they are not or claim to do. jack may i add that not every pigeon in the u.k win because they are doped or medicated , and sir to claim it is wrong , whatever your views on medication they are your views and repected they are but as you seem to want to tar everybody with the same brush , well small minded that seems. also as for Derek Nichols what a bloody shame that program was and it was embarrassing to be associated with the sport. but i can see in 10 years time that is the way the sport is heading, so maybe mr nicholls will get satisfaction he wants. cheers all, and jack please consider this .... it does not have to be your way or the highway!!! your a nice guy and wishyou all the best,

hello jack, i understand you do this as a supplement income which is all well and good and i commend you for it. but people can download your theory in internet cafes and it would not be expensive for them to do, but as its your supplement income then i do understand, as for bill carney , i had a friend who had him visit he's loft only to kill all he's best racers and another friend who had him visit told me he visited his loft and killed most of he's birds then evaluated the race team to find among them a top racing bird of exceptional quality, and said that the parents of such a bird should remain together as they would breed a loft full of top winners. well it would be hard to do this as bill carney killed the parents of the birds10 minute earlier and this should never have happened if the eyesign expert knew what he was talking about as you know eyesign is a genetic trait !!!! which is my point exactly when i say i do not think eyesign should be used as a selection tool , only a tool to confirm parentage which with good pigeons will see a fancier get to the top. what do you think? also if i was going to buy a book on eyesign , would it not be better to buy the book of the top eyesign man which in your words is bill carney!!! who has made terrible errors in his judgement in selection. so now you can see why fanciers are confused. i am not knocking it but people must live buy their conviction and eyesign as a measuring tool is theory , which is no more than one mans idea to bassically say that " he thinks he is right" why not term it a fact like i have and use it for something it cannot be disclaimed to do. facts and only facts should be used not ideas and theory.. regards spencer,

hi jack, i understand you have written a book and a second and your making a dvd at the moment, can i ask why you dont put your findings and transcript on your web page so everybody can learn what you know for free? i put my findings in the british homing world for free i have no secrets, and may i ask in what regard you hold bill carney and he's eyesign methods please? regards spencer , hope your well

Hi jack can i mention that your comment earlier on hitler is not a example to be aired in a pigeon forum... touche maybe? i not picking a fight again it is said tongue it cheek and hope you take it in humour . sure you will. and the german people are very much nice people regardless i think what a certain man by a certain name did. he not worth mentioning. roland what is it you want to know about eyesign ? do you have an e- mail address or mail me at spencer@timbarra.co.uk . i will try and advise you if you would like.

okitsme, do not worry about the smaller youngster, it will catch up and they are not really runts just hatched a day later so it will catch up.

hi jack, first i must agree with you that there are 2 colours of eyes , yellow dominent and white reccessive. we agree on that as it is a genetic fact. I would also like to agree that eyesign so called experts do have different terms for parts of the eye which adds confusion like you say. I do thibk however eyesign can be taken too far as instance that a pigeon when paired to another pigeon of different eye configaration will breed winners! I know you believe strongly in this and i do not want to put you down in any way, but i guess you think it can be done ...well i know it can be due to the fact that any good pigeons should and i say should breed winners together. so maybe eyesign is not necessarily the knowledgable factor it is claimed to be, i am trying hard to keep an open mind and it is hard believe me , so as you say since the bishop book things have changed alot and will probably change again. well why not now ? why not step back re-consider your findings and not just you but all eyesign men and say hold on eyesign has been used for the wrong reasons. and maybe thinking about it only facts should be used and maybe eyesign would not be so contraversial because theory would cease and nobody could question its authenticity, all i do is try and stick to facts, dcould you let me know your views on this and what do you mean by genetic drift ( drift means move along) thanks spencer