SNFC DEBTORS

[THE FIFER]

but surely if officials are doing and running organisations as they want is the fault of the members same with the mamagement committees they are told what to do by the members, if any organisation has got into a situation where management are ruling its the fault of the members, delegates are messengers, you the members instruct them on how they vote etc at council meatings, (in scotland SHU anyway).

[dandydoo]

I deal with all lot of this ....take your point Archie ...there is a lot of apathy in organisations. Fanciers ALWAYS say I only want to race my Doos or I am not interested in politics and scream like hell when a decision is made they dont agree with. Add to that geography, factionalism, personal disputes and Ego's a recipe for disaster ...the reality is there is a need to have certain skills to take up these positions just cos you put your hand up in a hall and get your pals to vote for you doesnt mean u have the skills knowledge or ability to take a delegate positon. for instance as part of a management committee etc

You become an "employer" (who of us are up to date on HR/personal issuea including european rights)

You are COLLECTIVELY responsible for the money and management of ..you could be held responsible for mis management of same

You need to be adept at public speaking and reasonable with written word

Need NOT discriminate not make any remark that is consider against race colur disability etc ( we have had this before too)

You are responsible for public and employers liability and are wide open to being sued singly or collectively.

You have to be fair and beyond reproach too

 

These are skills that are needed ...another common mistake that is made is to assume if someone is a good fancier they will be a good committee member. Whoever gathers information or feeds back to members ...people go these meetings not on what they know its what they think

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

Dandydoo for Prime minister ;)

Your posts on this topic have been great to read, many wise words. :)

[johno]

i could not agree more with you dandydoo. unfortunately the damage that has already been done by people who are still in control is going to take a long time to even attempt to repair. the ex fancier who has lost his house over a pigeon related issue cannot be easily calmed down. the suspension of ten years on a fancier for writing letters is the worst case of victimisation within any membership body in the uk. the people who obsessively enforced and manipulated these situations are still at the forefront of scottish pigeon racing. the right to question has become the reason to suspend. until this changes i think the implosion will continue. time for all decent members to stand up and be counted. vote for what is right regardless of the consequences.

[square_peg]

time for all decent members to stand up and be counted. vote for what is right regardless of the consequences.

 

i dont allways agree with your posts johno ,but this is probably the truest thing on here for a long time,the time to look back is sitting in the pub in the off season,reflecting on good or bad performances.the time to look forward is pairing up time,hoping that the new seasons youngsters are going to be the best ever.

NOW is the time to vote ,to take on a club or fed job,or get more involved in helping the "good old boy "who has done the job for years without moaning.

IF the now time doesnt happen all we will have left is the PAST TIME

[HOMER49]

Hi

Good posts but your all still missing the point its the SNFC that is owed the money

Should the SNFC start court procedings to recover the outstanding debt ?

Should the SNFC name and shame them in RP and BHW ?

Taking somebody to the small claims court is simple and very cost effective

As the persurer you claim all expences plus interest and the Sheriff Officers

make sure you get your money in full

Cheers

Homer 49

[Guest WINGS 04]

HOMER DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD ??

[THE FIFER]

no the snfc should suspend them, like the shu did and the rpra should do its job, its as simple as that, its a pigeon related item, and the unions should deal with it.

[HOMER49]

HOMER DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD ??

 

Hi Wings

They have had two years to pay

Cheers

Homer 49

 

[Guest WINGS 04]

I CAN'T SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BUT WOULD YOU WHANT TO TAKE ALL OF THEM TO COURT IF IT IS 107 AND IT IS THAT IS LESS THAN £ 30 EACH I WOULD JUST LET IT GO AND LET THEM GO

[HOMER49]

Hi Wings

You only take 3/4 to court

Once they see your are serious and not a piece of crap to be stepped on

the rest will pay NO PROBLEM

Cheers

Homer 49

[Guest]

hey wings we all pay or money to the snfc ,i have done for the past number of years and never flew a pigeon i just want to be part of this great club as i beleive that the snfc is part of our heritage here in scotland it was here before any club our union came on the scene ,concerning the debt in my opinion the should be chased up for it by whatever means the snfc sees fit its money thats is owed to them and i am quite sure majority of them would pay up if maybe they were lettered concerning same ,things like this give the doo game a bad name its not as if the cant afford it ,when you join a club or whatever you abide by its rules .

[matty]

some took part in the agm and because they never got there own way they walked out the meeting,they know the rules so they should pay!!!!!!!!!

[HOMER49]

no the snfc should suspend them, like the shu did and the rpra should do its job, its as simple as that, its a pigeon related item, and the unions should deal with it.

Hi fifer

Cant agree with you its not a union problem the monies are owed to SNFC

Cheers

Homer 49

 

 

[dandydoo]

I would like to say they should be dealt with in the same way as others have been in the past ...but I think had the motion they had wanted passed been passed they would have stayed. A bit of me says it was a deliberate act of protest so they should be made pay or we will have people holding the SNFC to ransom . But at the end of the day it will just enflame an already festering sore with further splits. These Guys dont want to be part anymore so they wont be bothered if suspended indefinately and if forced may pay up. Archie Fifer did have a point in that if inter-Union agreements were enforced it would be sorted quickly without having to go to court. A lot of Doo men have a big ego and will battle on to save face ....you might find a lengthy protracted battle in court going up levels challenges to the validity of the claims etc etc lawyers and plenty of £££££ ...

all SNFC members could join RPRA and NFC and then not pay ....ONLY JOKING. It needs to be sensible and well thought and ACHIEVABLE  

[GREENGRASS]

would have thougt it was simple, (if they did not resign before the agm and as you say some voted and lost well thats democracy) they should pay up, it does not matter that they did not fly a pigeon in the last 2 years or not.

[johno]

has anyone taken the time to attempt to analyse what is going on here. may i ask what the policy of the snfc was before the split. when was the last time the snfc attempted to debt suspend anyone. there have always had members who have not paid. none of these were chased up. the snfc have never as far as i am aware had their rules and constitution ratified by the shu. the snfc have ignored the shu rules and constitution on ets up until now. i am not arguing one side or another here. i am simply pointing out that the whole area is a minefield legally and there is not enough money to pay legal costs. as to confederation upholding each others suspensions we are once again treading a legal mine field. any individual member of any organisation in the uk joins the organisation of their choice. they do not join other confederations or organisations. scottish members do not have a recipricol right to fly in the whu opens or vice versa. i believe attempting to uphold local suspensions does not hold water as the individual is not a member of any recipricol set up. the individual has no right of appeal.  as dandydoo rightly points out we need to become more professional and throwing money at a legal situation in a vain attempt to prove some revenge based point is not professional. how much do you think it would cost the snfc to take all the individual members to court. each individual would have to be taken individually.

[dandydoo]

yes Johno that was my point ....there should consistancy to save the gripes that folk were singled out for undue harsh treatment than others that have gone before. I would point out that last year i know that the SNFC did chase the money and some of the outstanding debt was repaid. I would think that this year a similar scenario will take place ...

 

However in an analysis this gets us back to individual reasons for non payment. Why did some members in the past not pay? .. say they were made bankrupt, or perhaps passed away and the family (not concerned with pigeons were either unaware or didnt see the point) You would not chase these people. Some of those that havent paid I believe did it to hurt the SNFC, to set out their protest and to register the fact they were not pleased. Many were good fanciers that thought the national should accord with their minority wishes (again just cos your a good fancier doesnt mean you have the right to two votes)

 

Solution ...court option wouldn't have my support (lets not be childish as those who left for £30) A further letter stating that they are still owe and that it would be an honourable thing to do to pay up. Another letter threatening court action might be the way forward ....any home owner or business owner would worry re their credit rating and warrant type scenarios

 

I would not hit their pocket i would hit them in the Pigeons ...that is if they want to return they will not be allowed to race for two years. I wonder what the folk that left will do when the RPRA introduce ETS.

 

The English national is also been slated at the minute and it would seem plenty are leaving there. Moreover the SNFC races have always been recognised as hard race with top Pigeons scoring. Some of those folk that walked were good Fanciers ...they have hurt themselves in many ways ...winning the wee Channel Club that they fly with just doesnt hold the same esteem or prestige ...so in terms of personal achievement and gain they have de-valued their own achievements  ability and recognition in the Doo world. Top Flyers never made the National ...it was the national that gave them the recognition.

 

If the Unions HAD been working together and had an agreement or suspension understanding ...it may have helped English Fanciers being ripped off by that Steve Mckenzie or Noble .... it shouldnt be a negative thing it should be a positive partnership. Difficult with the RPRA cos you dont get to attend metings you have to rely on your delegate. The delegate needs to be aware of your situation and if he dont like you .....oops.

 

At the end of the Day ....if those that walked away accept that they have made their point and just pay up it would be a lot easier. Dont think the SNFC did anything wrong it was the membership that didnt agree with the proposal and REALLY they were trying to kick the SHU and the SNFC was only a battlesite and got caught in the crossfire  

[THE FIFER]

yes dandydoo, agree, but this is what unions are for,dealing with disputes etc and unions are supposed to be united, also it states in the different unions constitution the other unions the recognise, so how can this be that rpra recognise shu, and vice versa, and yet they are not recognising suspended members, all out of order to me.

[johno]

i take on board what you both say. may i suggest if we are being open and fair there were a good number of people at the snfc meeting who were only there to make up numbers. many people who had never prviously participated in racing with the snfc turned out to vote. many of our compadres had never before attended an snfc meeting.  whether we like it or not this was seen as petty. full federations left. many former out and out snfc fanciers of long standing were sickened by the events. it was not a walk away or an attempt to hurt the snfc. the fanciers who walked away were well aware of the cash rich situation of the snfc. these fanciers considered that the shu was heavily involved in manipulating the situation. another point that has to be made is that at the time there was no agreement between the shu and the rpra so the rpra done nothing wrong in accepting the members. until we get everyone agreeing to play by a set of rules that are applied in the same fashion to all members we are going nowhere. the current situation is clear to anyone who is willing to look honestly and fairly at the evidence. there is much more to this situation than ets. many who left have no problem with ets. the fact that an shu member has lost his home fighting against a situation paid for by shu members is sickening and horrendously wrong. i take on board that many members are unaware of the situation but the family who have lost their home do not have the luxury of considering this. the other case of a 10 year ban being imposed on an shu member no threats no violence no bad language says it all. it is time to stand up for and vote for what is wright. refusing to let these matters continue will in the end finish the pigeon game. we all have a duty to be fair and reasonable.

[dandydoo]

Johno you said " take on board what you both say. may i suggest if we are being open and fair there were a good number of people at the snfc meeting who were only there to make up numbers"

 

I agree but that was on BOTH sides and the reality is if you are a paid up member you are entitled to vote at the AGM. Maybe they attended because they wanted to vote against the proposals and some others wanted to have the proposal accepted ...anyway the proposal fell and that is two years and more. Johno its not petty, it is democracy! One has to accept the view of the majority ( believe me i dont always like it)

 

Wow! you give the SHU a lot of credit ....honestly i wish i had that much power to influence who turns out and how they vote.

 

Our fed stayed with the SHU not because they asked us to or manipulated the situation ...it was a combination of people firstly trying to form their own union which our Fed didn't want, they expected to take with a minority vote all assets. Our fed members did not want to join the RPRA so they voted against it ( when eventually we got a vote that was in line with the constitution) We were not offered any tangible alternative except "we hate the SHU minority"

 

So those folk who walked didn't want to play by the rules ...My point we can continue debating on this forum about who is right in our eyes but it solves nothing ...we can counteract each others point forever but it wont unite scottish pigeon racing and not take the bad feelings that persist away. Some of the bad feelings can be calmed if those people who owe money and refused to pay, should pay to the SNFC.

 

I think losing your home is horrendous ...but i have to say i WOULD NEVER have put my house on the line for pigeon racing. I take it the person lost their case ...why was that...that is not the SHU ...that would be the legal system a judge must have found in the SHU's favour.

 

I agree Johno ...but who put the Board of management into the SHU the FANCIERS themselves ...think who is your delegate and are they right for the job ...who has the time and the ability to do the job. It must be awful working for that organisations.

 

You want get people working together  ..... I know in our Fed (similiar situation to SNFC) people are angry at those who walked and left Clubs to pay for their rings seals rubbers and didn't pay their fees either. There is a fundamnetal mistrust now. If the SHU were replaced tommorrow ...how would that be better? ...a lot of people who left and joined the RPRA were previous SHU delegates and SNFC delegates and have contributed to this situation Yes they were there too. I would suggest its factionalism and one is in or out.

 

Question .. If the Guys in the RPRA had been running the SHU and the motion still fell ...what would have happened then ??

 

I say again get people in the jobs that have the ability and knowledge to do it ...who will take a view from fanciers ...will fight on behalf of the SHU not themselves and who have the stamina to see it through. Many Pigeon fanciers are older or retired and are perhaps not so clued up as younger people ...lets get a mix of older people younger people and try and match the delegates to the area of expertise that is required.

 

You can only influence decisions in an organisation by being in ..not when you are a member of another organisation. SHU members are not continually having a pop at the RPRA members. You feel very strongly about what happened in the past ......we all have ourselves to blame because those that made these decision were VOTED on the SHU by ALL of us.

 

Come back johno .... you are very passionate ...come back and help us make it better

[me]

Question .. If the Guys in the RPRA had been running the SHU and the motion still fell ...what would have happened then ??

 

 

Thats dead easy Dandydoo they could have just walked off the platform and denied the members a vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johno]

the first step on both sides would be to admit there were wrongs on both sides. i realise that alot of the wrongs were as a result of individual actions in a lot of cases. i still and will always feel that certain officials were and continue to be acting in a malicious fashion. the family who have lost their house were standing on a point of principle. i accept that this in itself is extreme but the original issue stemmed from a refusal by the ruling body to play the role of mediator. this family were never suspended from shu but were refused membership. the shu stood on the side of the shu delegates. the family had no legal representation at the high court. the current regime have never found a case in favour of anyone in opposition to an shu delegate. the ten year ban for letter writing stinks. no mediation. going to the shu lawyer to deny an appeal that was one day late. these are not the actions of responsible officials i suggest. i know this is old hat but how do we remedy these situations. how do we repair the damage done to the individuals involved in these cases. the shu heard appeals before and after the refusal and the ratification of the ten year ban. who is going to stand up and say we were wrong. ets and not paying snfc subs are important issues but pale into insignificance when you look at the damage that has been done to these peoples lives. i do not how the officials involved sleep at night. if we can start to attempt to remedy these situations we have a chance to move forward. if we do not the current situation will only deteriorate. lets stand up for what is right and fair. this first step would be an extremely good show an extremely positive step.

[dandydoo]

Firstly ME .... I would agree with you entirely we wouldnt have got a vote. Once again most of these posts by myself and other on Pigeon Politics are about those people who are delegates and management committee of the various organisations. ALL organisations

 

I say again its AGM time do you trust and have confidence in. Go to your club/fed/union AGM ...make sure who you vote for whom you think will do a good job.Make the time and effort to make sure you get the right result

 

Comminication is paramount ...if hard decisions have to be made ...make sure the fanciers know about it and understand it a wee newsheet every quarter would go along way.Feedback member questionnaires

 

" a wee true story ...i was working with a group ...who were up in arms because the National body decided they weren't to have their meetings in the local town hall instead they would bus them 10 miles to another hall. People were up in arms at this interference and making decision centrally ...to cut a long story short the National group had moved them becos of an asbestos health hazard not becos they were being bloody minded ...but no -one thought to tell the local group and they were away to resign and go it alone ...simple sad burt true"

 

Remember to hold your delegates to account i.e. make sure your clubs or feds wishes are known..if there is a decision to be made make sure your delegate knows how you(s) feel. It is easy for a delegate to say ..I have been instructed by the people i represent to say/vote this way and the reasons are.... rather than have to vote on something they are not sure how to.

Choose someone who has a bigger picture view ...someone who wants to promote pigeon racing, who doesnt get involved in East versus West doing in one club against the other ...someones whose motivation for taking on the job is Pigeons and simply the welfare of pigeon racing.

 

I THINK I HAVE SAID ENOUGH ON THIS ...THE FUTUREOF THIS SPORT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US. WE DONT WALK AWAY WHEN WE ARE NOT GETTING OUR OWN WAY. RESPECT THE VIEW OF THE MAJORITY AND GET THE RIGHT PEOPLE DOING THE WORK. DONT FORGET THESE DELEGATES ETC ARE VOLUNTEERS AND WHY SHOULD THEY GIVE THEMSELVES THE HASSLE AND HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE CRAP ....THEY DO THIS SO WE CAN RACE OUR BIRDS. WOULD OR COULD YOU DO IT AND DO IT FOR NOTHING. I BELIEVE WE CAN MOVE ON AND SORT THIS.

[johno]

i agree its the delegates and therefore the members who are ultimately responsible. the buck stops there. this being the case the membership have to be made aware of the full situation as you say dandydoo. the decisions good and bad are the final responsibility of the membership. following on from this it is not acceptable for individuals to say i only want to flee my doos it has nothing to do with me. what are your views on the wrongs that have been done to the family who have lost their home, the man in west of scotland suspended for asking questions about one of his pigeons allegedly being timed in by another member. about one application of rules being used in one case and another set bing used in another case. as has happened regularly. or the fella who whs been banned for ten years. how do we go about rectifying these wrongs.