Dead Youngsters In Nest

[Guest Davy Fleming]

Would like some views please on the following : Got a mate who isn't on the internet with a problem so has asked me to help.

He has had a lot of youngsters die in the nest around 2-7 days old and now a few of his stock team are looking as they have broken legs and not being able to walk then within a minute or so are up walking about as though nothing happened. ??????

[OLDYELLOW]

does he give them grit ????? could be a calcium efficiently , or over weight hens , other reason could be red mites other than that a trip to the vets

[Guest Davy Fleming]

does he give them grit ????? could be a calcium efficiently ,or over weight hens ,other reason could be red mites other than that a trip to the vets

 

Yes they get grit and certainly isn't red mite as i said that to him a couple of weeks ago and he treated them for that

[Guest stb-]

sounds like para salmonella tae me

[OLDYELLOW]

Yes they get grit and certainly isn't red mite as i said that to him a couple of weeks ago and he treated them for that

red mites need continual treatment there very prolific and have a 4 day cycle , they can live for 8 months without a host , i'm assuming that the birds that are going off there legs are hens which are over weight , or could be feeding too much protein

[Guest Davy Fleming]

Not too sure what sex they were but he had a 2 yrs old die midweek

[OLDYELLOW]

Not too sure what sex they were but he had a 2 yrs old die midweek

check his loft for red mites they go mainly for chicks in nest , find out what he's feeding , if neither red mites or too much protein then needs to see a vet

[Guest Davy Fleming]

A know his 2 yr old was clean as a whistle when it was found dead

[OLDYELLOW]

A know his 2 yr old was clean as a whistle when it was found dead

could be anaemia caused by red mite they mainly feed at night like been under bowls or in crevices , eliminate these probable causes first or as said your mate will need to see a vet

[Guest Gordon Drysdale & son]

check his loft for red mites they go mainly for chicks in nest , find out what he's feeding , if neither red mites or too much protein then needs to see a vet

Why do they mainly go for chicks,and what do they do to them?

[Guest Davy Fleming]

He feeds 50/50 best all round and hp economy

[OLDYELLOW]

Why do they mainly go for chicks,and what do they do to them?

blood suckers they are , they like dark warm places and are attracted to carbon dioxide so young are better to feed from , if there's chickens near your loft if you haven't had red mites it wont be long before you get them , can get sprays and dust , blow torch is also useful , ybs have bare skin ( apart from down ) so are easier to prey from

[OLDYELLOW]

He feeds 50/50 best all round and hp economy

could be too much protein he might want to lighten the feed with barley hp is high protein if he added 20% barley to his mix then stop feeding when they start to leave the barley

[Guest Gordon Drysdale & son]

blood suckers they are , they like dark warm places and are attracted to carbon dioxide so young are better to feed from , if there's chickens near your loft if you haven't had red mites it wont be long before you get them , can get sprays and dust , blow torch is also useful , ybs have bare skin ( apart from down ) so are easier to prey from

Cheers mate,i take it the parents can't do nothing to prevent this apart from what we can do ie sprays blow torch etc

[OLDYELLOW]

Cheers mate,i take it the parents can't do nothing to prevent this apart from what we can do ie sprays blow torch etc

unfortunately not im afraid , they can kill ybs in nest over a period of time them there also a pest as can effect racing birds resting resulting in poor results and anaemia from lack of iron so are a silent killer but tend to go for chicks firstly or weak birds

 

Davy a good article here covering quite a bit re protein and other things such as poisoning / canker overdosing : http://www3.telus.net/npaw/gchf07.html

[Guest strapper]

i would have the stock tested for paratyphoid!

 

the symptoms you describe are very similar to this , are the youngsters dying with corn in their crops?

 

if the problem was calcium defiency then the oldbirds would be mostly affected and not the young dying.

 

have any old birds had strange head movements?

[Guest IB]

Only way he'll know for definite what is wrong is to contact an avian vet and be prepared to bag & refrigerate the next bird that dies for autopsy, or hand over a sick pigeon to the vet for sacrifice & autopsy. Sound serious and he needs to get to the bottom of it quick.

[dal2]

Paratyphoid. feel sorry for the fancier!!!! Sh!t of a thing!

[Pego]

Hes not using black nest felts is he? We lost a lot of ybs up to a week old a few years ago due to these black nest felts.

[Guest Davy Fleming]

No he doesn't use felts at all only wood shavings and tobbacco stalks. But he has had another 2 x 10 day old youngsters die in the nest today with another yearling yesterday. I went and visited him this afternoon and had a look for the first time and noticed some of the nests were really wet with droppings. EXCUSE ME ,but would say it was like severe Diahorea (Spelling???) and smelly. Would say that there is no chance it is Para as not the same symptoms

[just ask me]

are they injected for

 

hows the older birds now

 

how much water are they drinking

[Guest Davy Fleming]

Yes they were injected and water intake is normal

[OLDYELLOW]

Sounds like wet feeders and canker , were ybs smelly / sweaty ??? birds water intake increases when got canker

[Tony C]

A possible cause

 

Streptococcus bovisInfection in Pigeons

 

 

Gordon A Chalmers, DVM

Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada

E-mail: gachalm@telusplanet.net

 

 

Streptococcus bovis (now called Streptococcusgallolyticus ) is a bacterial organism that, in the past has been associated with the udder of cows ?? hence the species name bovis, in reference to bovine, or more plainly, cattle. It is also a common, normal inhabitant of the intestines of many animals, including pigeons. In dairy cattle, it is an organism that isusually a signal or marker whose presence

indicates less than optimum sanitation in the environment of the udder. By itself, this organism is usually not important as a cause of inflammation or infection in the udder of cattle (although it can cause udder infections), but it does signal to the dairy operator that sanitation around the udder of his cows is less than desirable.

 

In racing pigeons, however, this organism presents a totally different picture because it is becoming a threat to both old birds and youngsters in some lofts in Europe. It appears that one or more strains of this organism has adapted to cause severe disease in pigeons, and in Europe at one point, it ranked second in importance to Salmonella sp. (paratyphoid) as a cause of disease in pigeons. One of the several important features of Streptococcus bovis is its ability to mimic some of the visible changes seen in paratyphoid infections in pigeons, namely, septicaemia (meaning the presence of bacteria multiplying in the bloodstream), and one of the consequences of septicaemia, swelling of the joints when these bacteria invade the joints. As well, differentiating between infection by Streptococcus bovis and adenoviral infection is also difficult. Vomiting, which is one of the main features of adenoviral infection, has not been evident in this streptococcal infection.

 

In one published study, 20 cases of infection caused by Streptococcus bovis were found among 293 submissions of pigeons(mostly racing pigeons) to one laboratory in Europe. In 17 birds, the major finding was swelling and abscess? like changes in the liver (strictly speaking,birds don't produce pus, so it is not correct to call these changes"abscesses"). Swelling and abscess? like changes were also found in the kidneys of 14 birds, swelling of the spleen of 11 birds, enteritis(inflammation of the intestines) in three birds, congestion of the lungs and pneumonia in two birds, degeneration of breast muscles in one bird, white spotsin the heart of one bird, air sac infection in one bird, and joint infection in one bird.

 

When the authors of the report on the European study had complete background histories on birds submitted for examination, they found the following information in five cases. In one case, 10?14 day?old youngsters died after 1?2 days of prostration and lack of appetite. It was found that only one of the two youngsters in a pair was affected. The liver of these birds was mottled and congested, along with congestion of the kidneys.

In another case, breeders housed in a densely?stocked loft in which sanitation was poor, lost weight. New pigeons had been

introduced to the loft on a regular basis. Liver and spleen of two birds examined were severely congested. Inflammation of the liver and kidneys was also found.

 

In a third case, one bird from each of three pairs of breeders died suddenly in a period of one week, right after their eggs hatched. Their youngsters and other breeders remained healthy. These birds had been examined for Streptococcus bovis a few months earlier, and were found tobe entirely negative.

However, several new pigeons had been introducedto the loft in the meantime. These breeders had a septicaemia, and colonies of

organisms were found distributed to many tissues.

 

In a fourth case, one bird had chronic arthritis of the hock joint and abscess?like changes in the kidneys after it had survived an outbreak of paratyphoid, and did not respond to treatment with Baytril.(Note this point about Baytril and Streptococcus bovis! See later information.)A pure culture of Streptococcus bovis was recovered from the liver and hockjoint of this bird.

 

In the final case, a bird had died after one day's illness. Post mortem examination revealed a one?inch diameter pale, hard area in the left breast muscle. Many bacteria typical of Streptococcus bovis werefound in this area.

 

Distilled to its essentials, Streptococcus bovis manifests its presence in pigeons in a number of ways, including invasion ofthe bloodstream and massive multiplication and distribution to a number of tissues and organs (liver, kidney, spleen, muscle, lung, heart, air sacs,joints), as well as infection of the intestines and production of diarrhea.

 

Experimentally, the same researchers inoculated cultures of this organism into pigeons, firstly by intravenous injection in one group, and in a second group, by mouth. All pigeons injected intravenously became very ill and developed excess urination, beginning from the first week of this study. One young bird became lame by the 12th day, and at post mortem examination, this bird plus three others were found to be in poor body condition, and had enlargement of the liver and spleen. The affected joint contained yellow, creamy material.

 

Five other birds also injected intravenously with Streptococcus bovis were observed for a total of 50 days after inoculation.Three of these birds passed a great deal of urine at intervals, and all of these birds had marked weight loss of 10?19%. Streptococcus bovis was not cultured from any tissue when this group of birds was examined at post mortemon day 50.

In the group of six birds inoculated with Streptococcus bovis by mouth, two birds began to pass the organism in droppings by the third day, and another bird, by the fourth day. The other birds in the group did not shed this organism in their droppings.

Two of the three pigeons shedding the organism in droppings were also found to have it in the throat. All birds in this group became negative on culture after one month, and none of them developed any sign of illness during the experiment.

The results of these experiments showed that the disease that occurred in inoculated birds varied considerably in its expression. As well, the course of the disease varied from very acute tochronic. The results also indicated that the disease is very difficult to diagnose without a post mortem examination and a bacterial culture of several tissues. They also showed that the signs and changes in this streptococcal disease mimic those of paratyphoid.

 

Another European study published in 1993 presented information on antibiotic treatment of infections caused by Streptococcus bovisin pigeons. It had been shown in earlier experiments that this organism was recovered from the intestines of 40% of healthy pigeons of all ages, and that pigeons that carry the organism in the intestines usually do not develop this disease. It was the opinion of these investigators that some unknown factor(s)might predispose pigeons to development of infections in the bloodstream, and as a result, disease. Signs of the disease include sudden death in pigeons of all ages, inability to fly, lameness, emaciation, excess urination, and

green, slimy droppings.

 

In the usual course of events in determining the best product to use in treatment, human and veterinary diagnostic laboratories run specific tests on bacteria that are cultured from tissues of diseased humans, birds and animals, to provide guidance in the choice of antibiotic orother product to use in treatment. In this study, cultures of Streptococcusbovis were inoculated intravenously into several groups of pigeons.

However, 48 hours before the intravenous injections, each group of pigeons was given a different, specific antibiotic in the drinking water, and these treatments continued through until 72 hours after the inoculation.

 

The results indicated that ampicillin anddoxycycline prevented illness in 80% of birds tested, erythromycin in 70% of birds tested, enrofloxacin (Baytril) in 30% of birds tested, and trimethoprimin 10% of birds tested. Obviously, the two poorest drugs in these tests were Baytril and trimethoprim, so they would not likely be the first choices for treatment of this disease, although are very useful in other situations. The results of these experiments involving live birds treated with antibiotics correlated very well with the usual type of antibiotic sensitivity testing done routinely by many veterinary diagnostic laboratories. In such laboratory tests, live birds and animals

are not used, but even so, agreement between the two types of

tests was very good.

 

Overall, the authors of this study concluded that,under

field conditions, ampicillin is likely the antibiotic of choice

in the treatment of Streptococcus bovis, since in general, most

species of Streptococcus tend to be highly sensitive to

penicillin and amoxicillin (chemical relatives ofampicillin).

However, Streptococcus bovis seems to have acquired high

resistance to antibiotics such as thetetracyclines (eg.

Aureomycin and Terramycin, for example). Most strains of this

organism were highly sensitive to erythromycin,but because strains of lactobacilli living in the crop of pigeons are able toi nactivate erythromycin and spiramycin, the use of erythromycin in pigeons maybe limited.

 

A further key finding in the use of antibiotics was that the much?touted Baytril was among the poorest products in dealing with this infection. Given the widespread use ?? and, I suspect, overuse and misuse?? of Baytril, it is reasonable that fanciers would reach for the Baytril whena streptococcal infection occurs in their birds, but information from Europe indicates that it is not the drug of choice in treating this streptococcal infection.

 

Because Streptococcus bovis is an organism that can be part of the normal bacterial population of the intestines of normal healthy pigeons, the factors that allow it to invade the bloodstream of pigeons are presently unknown. Some clues suggest that such invasion may be related to poor sanitation in pigeon lofts in which the disease occurs. Poor sanitation may allow for a massive buildup of potentially dangerous bacteria, viruses,etc., and exposure of pigeons to such huge numbers of organisms can overwhelm their immune systems, and allow disease to occur.

Housing pigeons on wire floors may be a partial answer, because,

according to this study, the lowest prevalence ofthis disease

occurred in lofts with wire floors. (Given the various

manifestations of this streptococcal infection, it is also

tempting to wonder about the role of other agents, such as

circovirus for example, which is known to damage the immune

system of pigeons so severely that they become highly susceptible

to many other infections.

 

Whether the European investigators

looked for this or other intercurrent viral agents can't be

determined from a perusal of their published work.)

Although certain antibiotics seem to offer good control of

the disease, at least based on current studies, treatment in the

field situations may be somewhat more difficult.This is because

these infections often have a good start before antibiotics are

used in the first place, and poor sanitation in these lofts may

interfere with treatment. During outbreaks in Europe, it was

found that excretion of Streptococcus bovis from the intestines

of pigeons resumed once antibiotic treatment stopped ?? which

means that these organisms continued to live in the environment,

ready to cause disease again at a future time.

 

It is possible that on a practical level,Streptococcus

bovis will prove to be a difficult bacterialorganism to deal

with. It seems that improved or well? maintained sanitary

practices in the loft will go a long way toward prevention of

infections, but even so, there is no guarantee that disease

caused by this organism will not occur. Only time and

investigation will identify a number of the factors that play a

role, not only in the development of this disease, but in methods

of control and prevention. Whether veterinary diagnostic

laboratories in North America are reporting these infections in

pigeons is unknown at this writing.

 

If sudden death or unexplained illness occurs in aloft when

sanitation is not the best, or if new birds have been introduced

prior to the onset of illnesses or death, it is important,

regardless of the cause, to have birds examined by a veterinary

practitioner, especially one who is familiar with pigeons or

exotic birds. Submission of representative birds by your

veterinarian to a diagnostic laboratory can help immensely in

detecting infectious or other diseases, and defining the precise

cause, as well as providing information on the correct treatment.

This is as true for all infectious diseases as itis for the disease caused by Streptococcus bovis.

 

As fanciers, we need to be aware of this and other diseases of pigeons, particularly since so many such diseases can be imported along with pigeons from all areas of the world. Given the brisk world? widetrade in pigeons today, especially from the European hotbeds of racing, it seems only inevitable that this and other important diseases will land on our doorstep ?? and of ourse, quite a number have arrived by these means already.

 

In summary, it is important to note that infections caused by Streptococcus bovis in pigeons can mimic those caused by paratyphoid organisms, possibly E. coli, and in some instances, could be confused with adenoviral infections. The key is to have affected birds examinedby post mortem, and to have various organs cultured to determine the identity of the bacterial agent causing the problem.

Only in this way can a cause be determined when losses such as those described earlier occur in a racing loft.

 

One last reminder: Baytril is NOT the drug ofchoice in this disease!

[Guest IB]

Think e-coli is the one with the really bad smell. Symptoms can mimic paratyphoid (salmonella) and paramyxo.